Every so often, I’ll assert that some statists are so consumed by envy and spite that they favor high tax rates on the “rich” even if the net effect (because of diminished economic output) is less revenue for government.
In other words, they deliberately and openly want to be on the right side (which is definitely the wrong side) of the Laffer Curve.
Critics sometimes accuse me of misrepresenting the left’s ideology, to which I respond by pointing to a poll of left-wing voters who strongly favored soak-the-rich tax hikes even if there was no extra tax collected.
But now I have an even better example.
Writing for Vox, Matthew Yglesias openly argues that we should be on the downward-sloping portion of the Laffer Curve. Just in case you think I’m exaggerating, “the case for confiscatory taxation” is part of the title for his article.
Here’s some of what he wrote.
Maybe at least some taxes should be really high. Maybe even really really high. So high as to useless for revenue-raising purposes — but powerful for achieving other ends. We already accept this principle for tobacco taxes. If all we wanted to do was raise revenue, we might want to slightly cut cigarette taxes. …But we don’t do that because we care about public health. We tax tobacco not to make money but to discourage smoking.
The tobacco tax analogy is very appropriate.
Indeed, one of my favorite arguments is to point out that we have high taxes on cigarettes precisely because politicians want to discourage smoking.
As a good libertarian, I then point out that government shouldn’t be trying to control our private lives, but my bigger point is that the economic arguments about taxes and smoking are the same as those involving taxes on work, saving, investment.
Needless to say, I want people to understand that high tax rates are a penalty, and it’s particularly foolish to impose penalties on productive behavior.
But not according to Matt. He specifically argues for ultra-high tax rates as a “deterrence” to high levels of income.
If we take seriously the idea that endlessly growing inequality can have a cancerous effect on our democracy, we should consider it for top incomes as well. …apply the same principle of taxation-as-deterrence to very high levels of income. …Imagine a world in which we…imposed a 90 percent marginal tax rate on salaries above $10 million. This seems unlikely to raise substantial amounts of revenue.
I suppose we should give him credit for admitting that high tax rates won’t generate revenue. Which means he’s more honest than some of his fellow statists who want us to believe confiscatory tax rates will produce more money.
But honesty isn’t the same as wisdom.
Let’s look at the economic consequences. Yglesias does admit that there might be some behavioral effects because upper-income taxpayers will be discouraged from earning and reporting income.
Maybe…we really would see a reduction of effort, or at least a relaxation of the intensity with which the performers pursue money. But would that be so bad? Imagine the very best hedge fund managers and law firm partners became inclined to quit the field a bit sooner and devote their time to hobbies. What would we lose, as a society? …some would presumably just move to Switzerland or the Cayman Islands to avoid taxes. That would be a real hit to local economies, but hardly a disaster. …Very high taxation of labor income would mean fewer huge compensation packages, not more revenue. Precisely as Laffer pointed out decades ago, imposing a 90 percent tax rate on something is not really a way to tax it at all — it’s a way to make sure it doesn’t happen.
While I suppose it’s good that Yglesias admits that high tax rates have behavioral effects, he clearly underestimates the damaging impact of such a policy.
He presumably doesn’t understand that rich people earn very large shares of their income from business and investment sources. As such, they have considerable ability to alter the timing, level, and composition of their earnings.
But my biggest problem with Yglesias’ proposals is that he seems to believe in the fixed-pie fallacy that public policy doesn’t have any meaningful impact of economic performance. This leads him to conclude that it’s okay to rape and pillage the “rich” since that will simply mean more income and wealth is available for the rest of us.
That’s utter nonsense. The economy is not a fixed pie and there is overwhelming evidence that nations with better policy grow faster and create more prosperity.
In other words, confiscatory taxation will have a negative effect on everyone, not just upper-income taxpayers.
There will be less saving and investment, which translates into lower wages and salaries for ordinary workers.
And as we saw in France, high tax rates drive out highly productive people, and we have good evidence that “super-entrepreneurs” and inventors are quite sensitive to tax policy.
To be fair, I imagine that Yglesias would try to argue that these negative effects are somehow offset by benefits that somehow materialize when there’s more equality of income.
But the only study I’ve seen that tries to make a connection between growth and equality was from the OECD and that report was justly ridiculed for horrible methodology (not to mention that it’s hard to take serious a study that lists France, Spain, and Ireland as success stories).
P.S. This is my favorite bit of real-world evidence showing why there should be low tax rates on the rich (in addition, of course, to low tax rates on the rest of us).
P.P.S. And don’t forget that leftists generally view higher taxes on the rich as a precursor to higher taxes on the rest of the population.
P.P.P.S. In the interests of full disclosure, Yglesias says I’m insane and irrational.
[…] they simply want to punish success because of spite and […]
[…] they simply want to punish success because of spite and […]
[…] Sadly, facts don’t matter to some of our friends on the left. Too many of them seem to think government should have first claim on anything taxpayers earn, particularly if they are successful. […]
[…] Sadly, facts don’t matter to some of our friends on the left. Too many of them seem to think government should have first claim on anything taxpayers earn, particularly if they are successful. […]
[…] Sadly, facts don’t matter to some of our friends on the left. Too many of them seem to think government should have first claim on anything taxpayers earn, particularly if they are successful. […]
[…] Some of them are motivated by resentment against those who have achieved success. These are the people who support the hate-and-envy message of politicians such as Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. […]
[…] realize I’m making an ugly accusation. But in my defense, I’m simply reporting what they write. Or what they admit to […]
[…] Some of them are motivated by resentment against those who have achieved success. These are the people who support the hate-and-envy message of politicians such as Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. […]
[…] Some of them are motivated by resentment against those who have achieved success. These are the people who support the hate-and-envy message of politicians such as Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. […]
[…] Some of them are motivated by resentment against those who have achieved success. These are the people who support the hate-and-envy message of politicians such as Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. […]
[…] Some of them are motivated by resentment against those who have achieved success. These are the people who support the hate-and-envy message of politicians such as Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. […]
[…] many folks on the left support class-warfare tax policy because they are primarily motivated by a spiteful desire to punish success rather than provide upward mobility for the […]
[…] many folks on the left support class-warfare tax policy because they are primarily motivated by a spiteful desire to punish success rather than provide upward mobility for the […]
[…] many folks on the left support class-warfare tax policy because they are primarily motivated by a spiteful desire to punish success rather than provide upward mobility for the […]
[…] Ethical people, regardless of ideology, should be motivated by an empathetic desire to help the poor rather than a spiteful thirst to punish the rich. […]
[…] Ethical people, regardless of ideology, should be motivated by an empathetic desire to help the poor rather than a spiteful thirst to punish the rich. […]
[…] Ethical people, regardless of ideology, should be motivated by an empathetic desire to help the poor rather than a spiteful thirst to punish the rich. […]
[…] some of them are so motivated by spite that they even advocate for policies that will hurt poor people so long as rich people are hurt […]
[…] some of them are so motivated by spite that they even advocate for policies that will hurt poor people so long as rich people are hurt […]
[…] there is polling data to back up Emily’s statistical analysis. Heck, some folks on the left openly assert that envy should be the basis for tax […]
[…] don’t want tax rates to be so high that revenues decline. But it seems many of them actually are motivated by a desire to punish success rather than a desire to maximize revenue for […]
[…] For the folks on the left who are motivated by spite rather than greed, it doesn’t matter if higher tax rates generate more […]
[…] if the class-warfare crowd succeeds in their campaign to punish the rich, poor people will suffer the […]
[…] there is polling data to back up Emily’s statistical analysis. Heck, some folks on the left openly assert that envy should be the basis for tax […]
[…] P.P.S. Notwithstanding my snarky title, I don’t particularly care whether there are tax cuts for rich people. But I care a lot about not having tax policies that penalize the behaviors (work, saving, investment, and entrepreneurship) that produce income, jobs, and opportunity for poor and middle-income people. And if that means reforms that allow upper-income people to keep more of their money, I’m okay with that since I’m not an envious person. […]
[…] not quite as bad as Matt Yglesias, who wants a top tax rate of 90 percent (a rate that Crazy Bernie also likes), but Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is not bashful […]
[…] applaud Matthews for not hiding his true desire. Just like I applaud leftists who openly admit that they want 90 percent tax rates or who freely confess that they think all our income belongs to […]
[…] expect many leftists to change their minds because of this research. Some of them openly admit they want high tax rates solely for reasons of spite. Sensible people, by contrast, should be even more committed to pro-growth tax […]
[…] expect many leftists to change their minds because of this research. Some of them openly admit they want high tax rates solely for reasons of spite. Sensible people, by contrast, should be even more committed to pro-growth tax […]
[…] though I have shared polling data echoing these findings, I still have a hard time accepting that some people think like […]
[…] of the curve, that doesn’t lead to agreement on the ideal tax rate because some statists want very high rates even if the result is less revenue. And people like me only care about the growth-maximizing tax […]
[…] of the reasons they surrendered on that issue is that there was a big Laffer-Curve effect. Taxpayers with large incomes predictably decided to earn and report less income in […]
[…] P.P.S. Notwithstanding my snarky title, I don’t particularly care whether there are tax cuts for rich people. But I care a lot about not having tax policies that penalize the behaviors (work, saving, investment, and entrepreneurship) that produce income, jobs, and opportunity for poor and middle-income people. And if that means reforms that allow upper-income people to keep more of their money, I’m okay with that since I’m not an envious person. […]
[…] P.P.S. Notwithstanding my snarky title, I don’t particularly care whether there are tax cuts for rich people. But I care a lot about not having tax policies that penalize the behaviors (work, saving, investment, and entrepreneurship) that produce income, jobs, and opportunity for poor and middle-income people. And if that means reforms that allow upper-income people to keep more of their money, I’m okay with that since I’m not an envious person. […]
[…] to say, the spiteful leftists are the ones who hate the rich more than they love the poor (here are some wise words from Margaret […]
[…] should be a win-win for all sides, though there are some leftists who hate the rich more than they like additional […]
[…] leftist friends, who sometimes openly admit that they want higher taxes on the rich even if the government doesn’t actually collect any extra […]
[…] leftist friends, who sometimes openly admit that they want higher taxes on the rich even if the government doesn’t actually collect any […]
[…] none of this satisfies the statists. They actually would like us to think that letting well-to-do taxpayers keep any of their money is […]
[…] none of this satisfies the statists. They actually would like us to think that letting well-to-do taxpayers keep any of their money is […]
[…] none of this satisfies the statists. They actually would like us to think that letting well-to-do taxpayers keep any of their money is […]
[…] none of this satisfies the statists. They actually would like us to think that letting well-to-do taxpayers keep any of their money is […]
[…] none of this satisfies the statists. They actually would like us to think that letting well-to-do taxpayers keep any of their money is […]
[…] none of this satisfies the statists. They actually would like us to think that letting well-to-do taxpayers keep any of their money is […]
[…] a new phenomenon, of course. We’ve had ideologues such as Bernie Sanders, Thomas Piketty, and Matt Yglesias arguing in recent years for confiscatory tax rates. It appears some modern leftists actually think […]
[…] a new phenomenon, of course. We’ve had ideologues such as Bernie Sanders, Thomas Piketty, and Matt Yglesias arguing in recent years for confiscatory tax rates. It appears some modern leftists actually […]
[…] not go along with revenue-neutral tax reform. They have such antipathy to success that some of them openly urge punitive taxes even if the economic damage is so severe that the government doesn’t collect any […]
[…] they’ve urged higher taxes because of spite and hostility against those with high […]
[…] like high taxes for many reasons. They want to finance bigger government, and they also seem to resent successful people, so high tax rates are a win-win policy from their […]
This comes as no surprise.
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[…] there are leftists today who still have that attitude. Heck, there’s an entire political party with that […]
[…] those motivated by spite and envy, Bernie Sanders “wins” that debate since he wants bigger increases in the tax rates on […]
[…] those motivated by spite and envy, Bernie Sanders “wins” that debate since he wants bigger increases in the tax rates on […]
[…] statists nonetheless will applaud because they think all income belongs to the government and some American leftists also will applaud because of […]
[…] wonder some leftists admit that spite is their real reason for supporting confiscatory tax rates on the rich, not […]
[…] wonder some leftists admit that spite is their real reason for supporting confiscatory tax rates on the rich, not […]
[…] The President isn’t the only leftist to have this spite-driven […]
[…] The President isn’t the only leftist to have this spite-driven […]
[…] The President isn’t the only leftist to have this spite-driven […]
[…] Politicians generally like higher taxes because they can buy support and votes by redistributing other people’s money (though some leftists like higher taxes solely for reasons of spite). […]
[…] American statist named Matt Yglesias openly expressed a desire for ultra-high tax rates solely for reasons of spite rather than to finance bigger […]
[…] https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2015/06/07/honest-leftist-admits-desire-for-spite-drive-tax-po… […]
[…] of these people aren’t particularly interested in generating more revenue for politicians. Their real motive is hate and […]
[…] these people aren’t particularly interested in generating more revenue for politicians. Their real motive is hate and […]
[…] who say make really bizarre arguments. Mr. Bruenig could join Mr. Murphy, Ms. vanden Heuvel, and Mr. Yglesias as charter […]
[…] who say make really bizarre arguments. Mr. Bruenig could join Mr. Murphy, Ms. vanden Heuvel, and Mr. Yglesias as charter […]
[…] why I (sort of) applauded when Matthew Yglesias wrote in favor of confiscatory tax rates while admitting the government wouldn’t generate any […]
[…] why I (sort of) applauded when Matthew Yglesias wrote in favor of confiscatory tax rates while admitting the government wouldn’t generate any […]
[…] its report got a glowing review from Vox’s Matt Yglesias. Matt, you may remember, recently endorsed a top tax rate of 90 percent, so if he believes A on fiscal policy, you can generally assume the right answer is […]
[…] International Liberty, Dan Mitchell points out an example of leftists who genuinely want higher taxes on “the rich” even […]
[…] Though I give her credit for admitting that the purpose of harmonization is to force more spending, what she calls “upper convergence.” So we can add Ms. Thyssen to our list of honest statists. […]
Absurdly high tax rates are not there to collect taxes but to provide an umbrella under which to collect higher taxes from the middle class. If you tell the middle class that their marginal rate is now 60% they would rebel. However if you then tell them that the rich pay 90% then the 60% doesn’t look so bad. The difference is that the government will not collect the 90% from the rich, who have a lot of flexibility, but will collect the 60% from the middle class who have limited flexibility.
[…] few days ago, for instance, I (sort of) applauded Matthew Yglesias for openly admittingthat punitive tax rates would put us on the downward-sloping […]
[…] few days ago, for instance, I (sort of) applauded Matthew Yglesias for openly admitting that punitive tax rates would put us on the downward-sloping […]
[…] few days ago, for instance, I (sort of) applauded Matthew Yglesias for openly admitting that punitive tax rates would put us on the downward-sloping […]
Your tobacco tax twister reminds of what George Carlin said, ” if crime fighters fight crime and firefighters fight fire, what do freedom fighters fight? ”
The absurdity of it all.
Eisenhower:
Your comment reminds me of a Will Smith interview with a French reporter. He was all for higher taxes and income redistribution until the reporter informed him of the new 75% tax rate. His comment: “God Bless America!”
Sometimes people only see the consequences of their actions after they have been implemented. While I am someone that believes lower taxes have numerous positive effects I am willing to make an exception for people that eschew the views Matthew Yglesias promotes. Therefore I am announcing my support for a 90% tax on income over $10,000,000 on anyone in the entertainment business. Actors, musicians, athletes, media, authors, artists, etc. As these people earn some of the highest wages and are the most visible in our society this will have an enormous impact on inequality if Matthew Yglesias is correct.
Who cares if like most high income earners they typically only make these great sums for a very brief time. These people are among the most vocal for higher taxes and ending income inequality, the 90% tax will be a historic opportunity for them to lead the way to the world they advocate.
Andrew: Donut example was great. Why would you ever want to limit the supply of products and services people are willing to buy? In anticipation of supplies running out prices will rise.
Since Mr. Yglesias resorted to ad hominems when responding to your articles I don’t feel bad in saying that between his time at the Atlantic and Vox he’s consistently been the publications’ most asinine columnist, which is saying a lot for both. Truly a product of the contemporary fashion towards “journalism”: Publish first, think second (if ever).
The Donut Shop. One owner’s effort to reduce inequality of earnings.
Customer: Where are the donuts?
Clerk: We ran out at about 1 O’clock.
Customer: But, I love your donuts!
Clerk: Sorry, the owner didn’t want to be selfish.
Customer: That doesn’t make sense.
Clerk: The shop is very successful, and he is feeling guilty about that. So, he is only making as many donuts as he needs to live comfortably. He is allowing other donut shops to have their piece of the pie.
Customer: But, I love your donuts!
Clerk: It is selfish attitudes like yours that keep our society from being great.
Mr. Mitchell,
This is an excellent article, one which for the most part is very accurate in your favor. One thing, however, you did not mention as clearly as you implied in describing the alternative means for the rich to grow wealthier under higher income is while those who are rich’ will see their fortunes accrue more rapidly than ever due to devaluing currency measurements while their stocks soar at figures adjusted for inflation, those in the middle class become synchronized with the poor, the poverty line expanding naturally because a far lower percentage of who once were middle class become poor due to unemployment and prohibitive means to get out of poverty. Unemployment becomes systemic because labor costs lead to large manufacturers outsourcing, resulting in depressed regions of the nation such as the Rust Belt in the Midwest. Confiscatory taxation will never create wealth except for those at the top who profit off the miseries they advocated through the lie of “spreading the wealth”. The rich, who control these factories and other conduits to economic prosperity, grow more so even as they borrow the lower income taxpayers’ savings and are granted corporate welfare.
One of the few measures government should remain involved with respect to economic growth is to bust corporate monopolies which rise through conglomerations often created by corporate mergers. The reason one could argue the technology sector boomed during the mid-1980’s is due to the Reagan administration’s success at breaking up the monopoly that was AT&T. The Internet would not be as it is today had antitrust policies not broken the stranglehold by a singular telecommunications corporation. Competition is crucial for a property owning democracy. To “spread the wealth” artificially will lead to greater income inequality, in which under Reaganomics, Laffer’s supply-side concepts actually created a greater balance between the top and the rest of wage earners and taxpayers. We would not have seen the rise in businesses nor wealthy entrepreneurs had the bottom 90 percent not controlled 45 percent of the wealth.
[…] By Dan Mitchell […]