According to a new poll from a Democratic firm, an astounding 55 percent of people think “socialist” is a term that describes Obama. Here’s a blurb from a National Review post.
Deep in the poll, they ask, “Now, I am going to read you a list of words and phrases which people use to describe political figures. For each word or phrase, please tell me whether it describes Barack Obama very well, well, not too well, or not well at all.” …When asked about “a socialist,” 33 percent of likely voters say it describes Obama “very well,” 22 percent say “well,” 15 percent say “not too well,” and 25 percent say “not well at all.”
I’ve already commented on this issue twice, remarking that Obama technically is a fascist, but that it is much better to call him a statist or corporatist. But there is the tricky issue of whether a word should be defined by experts (to the extent economists are experts on anything) or whether it is more appropriate to accept the common understanding of what a word means. I don’t have a firm opinion on that issue, but if socialism now means someone who believes in lots of government intervention and redistribution, then Obama is a socialist (heck, Bush also would be a socialist). But if we stick with the official definition, which involves government ownership of the means of production, then Obama has relatively few policies that meet that standard.
Here’s what the Christian Science Monitor reported on the issue. The most amusing part of the story is that self-identified socialists are insulted to be linked to Obama.
Here’s what the Christian Science Monitor reported on the issue. The most amusing part of the story is that self-identified socialists are insulted to be linked to Obama.
The assertion is getting louder: President Obama is a socialist, a wealth-redistributing wolf in Democrat’s clothing gnawing at America’s entrepreneurial spirit. …So, is Mr. Obama trying to form The Socialist Republic of America? Or are the accusations mainly a political weapon, meant to stick Obama with a label that is poison to many voters and thus make him a one-term president? …[Some] refute the idea that government involvement in failing industries defines a president as socialist – or that wealth is being redistributed from the Forbes 500 richest Americans to the nation’s “Joe the plumbers.” What Mr. Johns, Mr. Gingrich, and others brandishing the “socialist” s-word are really complaining of is a return to the policies of John Maynard Keynes, the English economist who advocated vigorous government involvement in the economy, from regulation to pump priming, says labor historian Peter Rachleff of Macalester College in St. Paul, Minn. “Socialism suggests getting rid of capitalism altogether,” says Dr. Rachleff. “Mr. Obama is not within a million miles of an ideology like that.” For what it’s worth, socialists deny that Obama is one of them – and even seem a bit insulted by the suggestion. “I have been making a living telling people Obama is not a socialist,” says Frank Llewellyn, national director of the Democratic Socialists of America. “It’s frustrating to see people using our brand to criticize programs that have nothing to do with our brand and are not even working.”
[…] like a softie, I don’t think Biden qualifies if we use this strict definition. Just like I didn’t think Obama was a genuine socialistwhen I addressed accusations against him back in […]
[…] like a softie, I don’t think Biden qualifies if we use this strict definition. Just like I didn’t think Obama was a genuine socialist when I addressed accusations against him back in […]
[…] Part II, Steve discusses how Ludwig von Mises showed back in 1920 that genuine socialism (rather than Nordic-style redistributionism, which didn’t even exist back then) was not […]
[…] an economist, I prefer the latter approach, which is why I’ve pushed back (though not necessarily in a favorable way) against those who called Obama a […]
[…] Thomas Sowell points out this economic philosophy is fascism. But I’ll be more polite and refer to it as corporatism. […]
[…] Dicen que es una economía de artillería más que una economía socialista. Dadas las diversas definiciones de socialismo, ambas son correctas e incorrectas. Simplemente señalaré que existen muchas empresas estatales […]
[…] of socialism. They say it’s a cronyist economy rather than a socialist economy. Given the various definitions of socialism, they’re both right and wrong. I’ll simply note that there are many state-owned […]
[…] thing to understand, as I explain in this interview, is that these nations are only socialist if the definition is watered […]
[…] an economist, I prefer the latter approach, which is why I’ve pushed back (though not necessarily in a favorable way) against those who called Obama a […]
[…] an economist, I prefer the latter approach, which is why I’ve pushed back (though not necessarily in a favorable way) against those who called Obama a […]
[…] an economist, I prefer the latter approach. Which is why I’ve pushed back (though not necessarily in a favorable way) against those who called Obama a […]
[…] other words, these cranks are real socialists. They actually want government to own and manage the means of production (“popular control of […]
[…] as fascism) and ones where the government owns the “factors of production” (such as socialism and […]
[…] Regarding European socialism, we have great (although technically inaccurate) cartoons from Glenn Foden and Michael […]
[…] not even a real socialist, at least if we use the technical definition of this poisonous ideology, which is based on government ownership of the means of production. That […]
[…] that’s today’s message. We generally don’t have politicians urging the kind of comprehensive central planning found is genuinely socialist regimes. Not even Bernie Sanders. But we do have politicians who advocate policies that undermine the price […]
[…] not even a real socialist, at least if we use the technical definition of this poisonous ideology, which is based on government ownership of the means of production. That […]
[…] not even a real socialist, at least if we use the technical definition of this poisonous ideology, which is based on government ownership of the means of production. That […]
[…] involves something more pervasive, involving government ownership of the means of production (which, if you read this postscript, is why Jeremy Corbyn in the United Kingdom is far more radical […]
[…] even if neither they nor Sanders actually know the technical distinction between socialism and traditional American-style leftism, there’s an appreciation for the fact that he actually says what he […]
[…] even if neither they nor Sanders actually know the technical distinction between socialism and traditional American-style leftism, there’s an appreciation for the fact that he actually says what he […]
[…] by shifting to another topic. Many people express disbelief when I argue that politicians such as Barack Obama and Bernie Sanders are not […]
[…] a big difference. As pointed out by my good friend Dan Mitchell, socialists technically believe government should own the means of […]
[…] gripe is that Sanders isn’t honest. A genuine socialist believes in government ownership of the means of production. In other words, nationalized […]
[…] could call them “corporatists,” and I actually have used that term on occasion, but I think it’s too narrow. It’s not really an ideology, but rather a […]
[…] previously explained that he’s a run-of-the-mill statist, not a socialist. Though if you want a specific term of […]
[…] I wasn’t trying to defend him. I was simply making the point that it’s technically more accurate to refer to him as a statist or a corporatist. […]
[…] I wasn’t trying to defend him. I was simply making the point that it’s technically more accurate to refer to him as a statist or a corporatist. […]
[…] this being said, I want to reiterate something else that I wrote back in 2010. It is counterproductive to call Obama a fascist because that term is now linked to the specific […]
[…] this being said, I want to reiterate something else that I wrote back in 2010. It is counterproductive to call Obama a fascist because that term is now linked to the specific […]
[…] this being said, I want to reiterate something else that I wrote back in 2010. It is counterproductive to call Obama a fascist because that term is now linked to the specific […]
[…] this being said, I want to reiterate something else that I wrote back in 2010. It is counterproductive to call Obama a fascist because that term is now linked to the specific […]
[…] is not a socialist, which technically requires government ownership of the means of production. As I’ve explained before, it’s much more accurate to say he’s a statist, a corporatist, or a […]
[…] is not a socialist, which technically requires government ownership of the means of production. As I’ve explained before, it’s much more accurate to say he’s a statist, a corporatist, or a […]
[…] what about the media establishment getting all upset when anybody calls Obama a socialist (he’s actually a corporatist or statist), but don’t pay any attention when a Congressman Andre Carson slurs millions of Americans by […]
[…] Instapundit readers. I also have written about whether Obama is a socialist, which is a good companion to this […]
Thank you for the interesting article.
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[…] “I have been making a living telling people Obama is not a socialist. It’s frustrating t… […]
I agree with ZZMike – he’s too ignorant of economic theory to really have any coherent policy- I prefer to think of him as more of a pirate or third world kleptocrat.
Socialism and Communism were philosophical constructs of Karl Marx. Socialism was an intermediate step to communism was an intermediate step to a stateless utopia. If you believe in the Marx philosophy, you can hardly call yourself a socialist since you believe equally in the socialist > communist> utopian continuum.
In Marx’s system, the workers would arise spontaneously and seize the means of production from the capitalists that were one step down in the continuum. Workers have never, ever remotely done anything like that on a national scale. Instead, elitists seize the state in behalf of workers, and when the workers object they are executed or sent to the Gulag. There has never been a functioning socialist state, and those claiming otherwise can be more accurately described as totalitarian terrorists. These people may also be described a Fascists, the state owning or at least controlling the means of production.
Obama has never lifted a finger to promote socialist goals, but everything he has done has resulted in seizing power over government institutions and control of the means of production (Government Motors, nationalized health care, energy cap and trade, etc.)
Obana is not a socialist but a national socialist.
Of course he’s not a socialist. He’s a neosocialist. If he and his merry band of minions deny it, we can only reply that what they do speaks so loudly that we can’t hear what they’re saying.
I agree with those who say that it’s a little silly to be having arguments about semantics when we should be discussing what we can do to stop the Narcissist-in-Chief. Howsomever…the control freak in me can’t resist pointing out that gummint ownership of the means of production is communism, not socialism.
There is no such thing as Socialism, merely incomplete Communism.
There are no Socialists, only Communists who aren’t finished yet.
Obama is not a true “Red” Socialist; he does not support wholesale confiscation and redistribution of wealth. (See the movie “Knight Without Armor” for a scene in which the Russian masses confront a wealthy countess duing the 1917 Revolution. They lock her up and plunder the mansion. That’s RED!)
Many of Obama’s allies and backers are immensely wealthy, and none of them have the slightest fear of losing their millions or billions. A lot of them are profiting handsomely from his policies.
However, Obama is very much in favor of massively increasing the scope and impact of the government. Statist, definitely. And the money for his schemes comes from the people – mainly the middle class, the unfavored upper class, the unfavored working class.
And “corporatist” too.
As to the Nazis and other fascists: the NSDAP had a socialist element. (Some of the Brownshirts were referred to as “beefsteaks”: brown on the outside, red on the inside.) But this radical element was purged after Hitler took power, and there was no general program of redistribution. Hitler liked to say that there was no need for the state to seize the holdings of the capitalists because the state now controlled the capitalists themselves.
He definitely seems like a marxist to me. And the reason being that he is taking control of these industries by regulation and fiat. It’s a very different style of marxism than the traditional one whereby government owns and command and controls it.
He will command and control it by non-voted upon legislation, by the executive order.
A statist works fine for me, but don’t talk to me about the danger of the extreme right as if you are referring to fascists or nazis. The danger of the extreme right is that we all wake up and kick the SOBs out!
If Dan’s and Karl Marx’s definition says socialism exist only where exist
“…government ownership of the means of production,”
I think whether he is a socialist depends on the meaning of the word “ownership”.
The supreme court determined that in some cases government regulation of property can be classified as a “taking” under the constitution. If you “take” it, do you then own it? I think you do, at least partially.
I am a real estate investor. Just about every day I am told by various governments something new about what I have do with my property and what I have to do with the money my property produces. It sure seems to me that these folks are my partners or part “owners” of my property. They became my partners though the threat of force and sanction. They also have the benefit of not having to provide any of the labor or capital, but have lots of control over how and when both are spent. Does this “ownerrship” constitute socialism?
Our federal government is so huge, growing so fast, and has so many laws, rules and regulations governing every aspect of our lives, including in Obama’s plans the very air we exhale, that I think a distinction of whether they “own” our property, our factories, our land, our power plants, our banks and our persons is a pure semantic argument and a distinction without a difference.
I thus think the word “socialist” works just fine. I think other terms just obfuscate the issue.
[…] Obama and the “S” Word According to a new poll from a Democratic firm, an astounding 55 percent of people think “socialist” is a […] […]
It may be of help to remember that Karl Marx famously denied that he was a marxist. Fascists are part of the big socialist family. They’re not internationalists. They are synonymous with corporatists. And if you care about the minutiae of which brand of socialism is aiming to choke your economic life, you have too much time on your hands. They’re all bad.
Donald Sensing
“But fascism is a form of socialism. One could argue that National Socialism in Germany was not technically fascism, but it was certainly socialist. Obamaism is not fascism in the form of either Italian fascism or National Socialism, but its underlying principle is exactly that articulated by Mussolini: “Everything within the State, nothing outside the State.”
”
Maybe a little more. I think FDR got the whole administrative law concept from Mussolini’s idea of representation by corporates. Now our healthcare and ‘co2’ (re: industry) will be run by these organs.
Everything inside the state is better an example of totalitarianism…
“But if we stick with the official definition, which involves government ownership of the means of production, then Obama has relatively few policies that meet that standard.”
Hey “ownership” or “control”, machts nichts.
Obama wants to control and administer the economy, as much as possible, and seeks direct and indirect means to do this. The results are the same. And any “pure”socialism will devolve towards a totalitarian regime, ref Hayek.
So I won’t argue that he’s not a fascist at heart, whether he knows it or not. But that he falls short of Mussolini doesn’t make that attribution wrong, just as his failure to turn America into something akin to the Paris collective.
So I find it is tendentious and odd to argue he is not a socialist at heart or in principle.
“Ownership is the state or fact of exclusive rights and control over property, which may be an object, land/real estate or intellectual property. ”
Some modern socialists find it nice to quibble over definitions of ownership vice control. They cleverly just remove directly attributable responsibility by control without classic ownership, while keeping the authority to control all the assets as they choose.
More and more government control over the property previously in the private sector means more socialism.
Since “statist” is not a commonly understood term, socialist will do quite nicely for the people being sampled.
Socialism is a continuum. Yes, Bush had socialist tendencies, but light grey is not pitch black.
– Mike
What matters is that a definition fit within an American context. Within the context of what most Americans expect in the way of governance, Obama might as well be a socialist. It doesn’t matter whether he’d be considered a socialist in France or Venezuela, but in the U.S.
I would agree, though, that the more general term “statist” fits the current president, except his more extreme type of statism has to be contratsted from that of, say, Bush or McCain.
Other ideological descriptions of Obama offered by Dan Mitchell work for me as well.
All in all, what matters is that he does not fit the American bill, and his ideology is foreign and hostile to the American way.
A distinction without a difference. Hairsplitting definitions are boring and never get to the real point, which is that Obama’s policies are increasing the burden of government on us all, and we haven’t even begun to see the costs yet. The basic tactic of these people is to raise spending and then use the deficits as an excuse to raise taxes in the name of fiscal responsibility.
Just what kind of political aberrant Obama is remains a tough question.
He’s not quite a fascist. Mussolinian fascism involves a strong organic element of nationalism. This is the point on which Mussolini broke with the Marxists and Bolsheviks, who fancied their movements to be international, to be the starts of worldwide revolutions which would render national borders irrelevant. Hitler’s vision had to be different, as he wasn’t a German national; so, not surprisingly, he emphasized a socialism for an entire race, rather than a nation – the Germanic race (whatever that means) vs. the traditional nation-state of Germany. Other races were therefore outsiders and enemies. Mussolinian fascism never went that far. And Spanish fascism was something else entirely – it just confuses the issue when Franco is lumped in with other mid-century fascists. The point is that nobody would ever accuse Obama of being an American nationalist – not after the Apology Tour and his near-kowtowing to foreign leaders.
And Obama isn’t a Marxist. The Marxists have very specific and rigid theories about the relationships between Capital and Labor (or “the producers of value”). But modern progressivism is obsessed with “the poor,” and not so much with “the workers.” Marx didn’t seem to be overly concerned with the poor, except when they overlapped with the workers. Marx wasn’t concerned with taking from the rich and giving to the poor; he thought the workers should take what was already rightfully, if not legally, theirs. Marx was apparently not much interested in rewarding economic non-performance with a system of handouts.
So I don’t know just what Obama is. I’m tempted to say that he’s just a petulant and destructive putz, but that’s not really a “bumper-sticky ready” comment.
It doesn’t matter what Obama is: all corrupt governments work the same.
If you use the definition of government ownership, then Obama may not be a socialist. I prefer using government control and by that definition Obama is a socialist. He is of the fascist subset of socialists so your definition is also correct.
Socialist rarely bother to accept ownership any more. It carries too much responsibility. They prefer to control without the bother of possession. As socialist controlled businesses fail the owners can be blamed and the socialists demand more control. Marx failed to realize how lazy his followers would be.
In my opinion the “political orientation as a circle” thing is bunk propagated to confuse the issue.
The primary determinate of style of governance is control. When the axis is government control then the left is maximum control and the right is minimum control. Totalitarianism vs anarchy.
Clearly Obama lives on the left. How far is yet to be determined. One problem with Obama is he never tells the truth so judging his ultimate position must await his actions.
I solved this semantic problem for myself while BHO was running for the office. Technically, he and many Dems do not fit the classic definition of socialist. Yet we know they are socialist and some are communist. Here is the answer for referencing the Dems and BHO and the current group of leftist. They are Neo-Socialist. The Dems learned they cannot run any business (forget the very few who actually did since they are now referred to as moderate republicans) and therefor there would be no wealth, thus they “allow” the smart ones to found, operate and run business, trade and industry and then take it away and give it to the non productive for votes. Those who want to leap on the old- “he’s a mean conservative” should know that if we take out the folks who are needy because they stick junk in their veins and the truly non working freeloaders there is < than 1% truly that need our help permanently in America. This is very affordable at Reagan tax rates. So we are left with the "Neo-Socs" who are just smart enough to know that they cannot make a go of it in the real world of business and trade but they can go through the back door and steal it by buying the votes to get into and stay in office. Thus BHO and the Dems should be labeled Neo-Socs or Neo-Socialist. Another name could be SCUD's for Socialist, Communist, Utopian Democrats.
But fascism is a form of socialism. One could argue that National Socialism in Germany was not technically fascism, but it was certainly socialist. Obamaism is not fascism in the form of either Italian fascism or National Socialism, but its underlying principle is exactly that articulated by Mussolini: “Everything within the State, nothing outside the State.”
“I have been making a living telling people Obama is not a socialist,” says Frank Llewellyn, national director of the Democratic Socialists of America. “It’s frustrating to see people using our brand to criticize programs that have nothing to do with our brand and are not even working.”
Am I the only one who finds it amusing that this head socialist is upset about the effect on his brand! I would have thought that such brand consciousness was a capitalistic point-of-view.
As if there were value in the “Socialist” brand that could be lost through association with Barack Obama!
Obama a Socialist? Close enough for government work!
‘Fascist’ is the larval form of ‘Socialist’.
Back to James Carville’s poll that found 55% of respondents think Obama is a socialist.. Too bad they didn’t do a couple follow-up questions. First, how many of the people who think Obama is a socialist think that’s a Good Thing and, second, how many of those who don’t think he’s a socialist think he’s not socialistic enough and are disappointed because he hasn’t paid their rent and put gas in their car yet?
Hankmeister
“I’m sick and tired of hearing how Nazis were allegedly “right wing” when Hitler”
They were…. but ‘right wing US conservatives’ would not be considered right wing in Europe around then.
If anything the progressives sand bagged you with those terms as insults so they could compare you to the Euro right.
So to recap, that doesn’t make the Nazi’s ‘left wing’, it means (IMO) your not actually right wing in 30’s Euro terms.
It gets more confusing since the left picked up a lot of old [actual] right wing ideas. Ironic a bit. They put so much energy into accusing their classical liberal enemies of being right wing fascists that they couldn’t recognize actual right wing ideas… enough to reject them…. so now they spout them….
While I like the “political orientation as a circle” model as a simple way to illustrate a concept, the Socialism as a subset of Fascism is a more accurate consrtruct I believe. The case for it was clearly made in the excellent book Liberal Fascism, where the author nails down the chronology and evolution of the ‘Progressive’ movement in the world and especially the US.
Since you agree that the form of economic life espoused by BHO is technically fascism, then he is a socialist. Fascism is a form of socialism and Mussolini (named after Benito Juarez by his radical father) was a confirmed socialist before he developed the fascist strategy for controlling the “means of production” without actually seizing them.
Well if Mr. Obama and certain liberal Democrats are offended by being called “socialists”, then maybe they ought to be called “communists” since he and the liberal Demoncrats running Congress have the complete support of the Communist Party USA (CPUSA). I seriously doubt the CPUSA would give its stamp of approval to anything that doesn’t serve a communist agenda.
If the shoe fits, wear it!
Face it, liberalism is all about control, controlling the people by taking from Peter to give to Harry, you know, “spreading the wealth” (just so long it isn’t too much of their wealth, right?). True conservatism/libertarianism believes the goverment ought to be forced (by Constitutional constraints) to leave the American people and the People’s industry ALONE as much as possible!
In fact, the old school liberalism of the founding fathers is perfectly captured in the blend of today’s conservative-libertarianism locus. The discredit post-modern liberalism has brought to the “liberal label” is unconscionable. In fact, the real “liberals” today are those (many of whom having gravitated toward the Tea Party movement, btw) conservative-libertarians who embrace the traditional economic institutions and cultural values while insisting the federal government A truly free people doesn’t need some nanny government telling them what it thinks is good for their economic vitality and their American way of life.
I think a political movement which embraces a new republic under the old Constitution – a return to the fundamental values and policies which made this country great in the first place – should be able to reunite middle America against the grinding and growing fascism of AmeriKan socialism.
Even a short amount of research with Google will show there are many definitions of “socialist”. They all share a common point: the socialist seeks to remove decisions and assets from being a private matter and to make them a matter for a public institution to own and decide on behalf of the public.
The socialist seeks to substitute public decisions for previously private ones.
The Declaration of Independence is part of US Law. It makes clear that every human has rights from the Creator that no government can take from them. Proposing to remove a decision or assets from individual humans and to “socialize” them violates those basic human rights.
Further, in order for the socialist to secure the political power to do so, he must promise things that he cannot deliver. He must take things that are not his, and he must convince the public that coveting is sound public policy, for he must justify taking assets from some in order to pay benefits to others.
Socialism is based on lies, coveting and theft. No person who is committed to keeping the Ten Commandments can support such policies.
“..President Obama is a socialist, a wealth-redistributing wolf in Democrat’s clothing…”
Ah, how clever of the president to go forth undisguised!
One matter I think all will agree on. That is: Obama is a tyrant. A spoiled child-like creature. A Child Emperor.
Socialist. Marxist. Fascist. Statist. Corporitist. Anti-business.
Obama = FAIL
That poll is a lie – are they saying that 45% don’t believe Obama is a socialist? Balderdash!
Most any time categorizing politicians comes up, I wish mention would be made of any of the various attempts to move from a single-axis view to a multi-axis view.
Like the Pournelle Political Axis or similar.
Obama is very much a statist. The net result of most anything he proposes is inherently more government – and he sees this as desirable.
He is also at the extremity of “progressivism” – that is, the desire to use the force of government to mold society.
It’s been my experience that people who complain about the accusation that Obama is a socialist are secretly complaining that he isn’t socialist enough.
As a number of commenters above have pointed out, “Obama is not a socialist, he is a fascist” is nonsense. Fascism is a flavor of socialism, as members of the National Socialist Workers’ Party would happily tell you.
The political circle analogy is a fairly good (though not perfect) illustration.
I prefer the the “Twisted Mobius Strip” view of American politics. If one accepts the existence of radical “right” partisans who are essentially anarchists who believe no government is best, and if one also accepts the existence of radical “left” partisans who believe big government is best, and then acknowledge that often there aren’t that much difference between the two extremes which can be quantified to one degree with the apellation of “anarcho-socialism”, then we see that those who believe in limited government (traditional political conservatives/constitutionalists/libertarians) are the actual middle, RINOs (so-called moderate Republicans) are to the left and and relatively mainstream post-modern liberals fall even further left. To the right of limited government conservative libertarianism you would have the “religious conservatives”, total free market conservatives and then various permutations of libertarian anarchists and outright anarchists.
My two cents regarding this political confusion.
It is laughable that ‘real socialists’ deny Obama is one of them. Maybe they think we will buy their baloney.
If there is any doubt as to Obama’s true colors, go to this web site. It is a comprehensive and fact-based study in everything Obama (hint: they show him born in Hawaii): http://keywiki.org/index.php/Main_Page
No, he is not a socialist, he is a not very bright 19 year old girl, vegan, majoring in women’s studies. That is the only possible explanation for this:
“When I became the NASA administrator — or before I became the NASA administrator — he charged me with three things. One was he wanted me to help re-inspire children to want to get into science and math, he wanted me to expand our international relationships, and third, and perhaps foremost, he wanted me to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science … and math and engineering,”
Both socialism and fascism share the essential quality of being COLLECTIVIST ideologies. The hows and whys are incidental. Whether it’s government ownership or merely heavy-handed control, the basic premise is the same. Whether the policies are redistributionist based on income or race/group identity, the basic premise is the same: the individual serves the interests of the state, not vice versa.
I miss the old days, when calling someone a commie bastard was really just a figure of speech. You didn’t expect to be presented with evidence it was true.
“…that Obama technically is a fascist,…”
Works for me.
BTW, despite fifty years of academic obfuscation and outright lies, “socialism” and “fascism” are both left-wing facets of the same socialist/central government gem. Nazis killing Communists and vice versa was imply a matter of fratricide. Both political systems fall within the socialist-collectivist orbit. For goodness sake, Nazi was simply the shortened acronym for National Socialist German Workers’ Party. Now what part of “national socialist” don’t modern liberal socialists and left-of-center intellectuals don’t get?
I’m sick and tired of hearing how Nazis were allegedly “right wing” when Hitler, Goebbels and Himmler explicitly identified themselves as “socialists”. They were national socialists through and through, hated capitalism (just like the Sov-Coms), allowed private ownership of industry yet strictly controlled prices and output, and promoted a “New Germany” but undermining the policies and political institutions of the Old Germany. As far as the racist policies of Nazism are concerned, that certainly didn’t make Nazis “rightwing” since I know any number of allegedly “enlightened” post-modern liberals who are every bit as racist as a deep south redneck, they’re just better at hiding behind accepted PC euphemisms.
KenB writes:
The differences in effect between classical fascists and classical socialists are few. This makes sense if, as I, you do not view the political spectrum as a straight line but instead as a circle. At the bottom of the circle is a completely free, laissez-faire economy. At the top of the circle is complete government control of the economy.
Exactly–the result in terms of functionality is the same. The only difference is the purported rationale for doing it. And in the end–functionality is all that counts. Excuses, no matter how eloquently phrased, are still just excuses. The morally bankrupt can find an excuse for anything, be it rape, robbery, theft, or murder, and claim that their behavior “really” isn’t what it appears like on the surface because their motives for doing so were actually pure and just. Their victims deserved it.
But they can only stretch this so far. People’s capacity for suspending disbelief only goes so far, and when it collapses there can be one Hell of a reckoning for the ones who worked Evil in the name of Good. Mussolini learned that the hard way.
jgreene
“Oh, yes…Obama is a “community organizer” trained by Saul Alinsky with a leftist agenda reinforced by his 20 plus year association with people like William Ayers, terrorist, and Jeremiah Wright, White hating, Black Liberation Theologist nut job.”
I think, in discussions about Obama and socialism, it would also be a good time to bring up his association with The New Party.
Pahleeeeze! There must be at least 28 different definitions for “socialism” or “socialist” and surely Obamao falls under at least three or four of those definitions.
Look, we’re talking about expanding the entitlement/welfare state whereby central government is empowered by the socialist-left in this country to levy confiscatory taxes in order to maintain or expand the socialist welfare plantation. And this is precisely what Mr. Obama and the liberal Democrats running Congress are doing … “spreading the wealth.” If that isn’t some degree of socialism (or even communism which is merely one facet of the broader socialist gem) then one simply isn’t being intellectually honest.
Now, does that mean Mr. Obama is a Marxist (though he has certainly embraced certain aspects of “from each according to his ability, to each according to their needs”)? No. but it wouldn’t be unfair to paint him as a neo-Marxist or even a neo-com (neo-communist) given how his economic and political views strike at the heart of free market capitalism.
And BTW, given how post-modern liberals have fawned over past socialist system, why should they be ashamed of being called “socialists” or even “liberals”? I find it fascinating that even raving lunatic liberals react negatively to the term “socialist” which actually describes their big-government views.
New Democrat motto: If it ain’t broke, fix it until it is.
And that, fellow citizens, is precisely how one can detect American-style socialism … the unfettered political attempts to undercut the free market system and replacing it with government programs or bureauctratically over-regulating private corporations until they either become bankrupt or transition to a corporate-socialist government sponsored enterprise.
Really, he could go by social democrat in many places in the world. Straight up socialist would work in other places. Just depends.. In Germany social dem still could mean revolutionary lefty up until rather recently. Whereas in France what could be called social democrat in say Sweden… just gets’s called ‘socialist’… For the biggest mangle of political terms though, the USA is still #1 (where social democrats call themselves liberals)…
But back to the topic… What, basically, did the elected western leaders tend to call themselves when they had their respective governments take over healthcare systems? Yep, socialists. 🙂
Also, the left right line between corporatist and socialist is almost all gone since the social democrats gave up on the idea of a class war… that and the lefties raiding the old right’s tool chest for ideas (organic, nature worship, blaw blaw blaw).
The distinction between fascism and socialism pertains solely to form, not essence. Just as differentiating between murders by their choice of weapon is primarily of interest to “criminal Minds” types of specialists, the minor distinction between fascism and socialism (i.e. the legal semantics of “ownership” of property) do exist and are important to political experts…. but are irrelevant to the rest of us.
I think you are confused about the terms. Socialism is simply a subset of fascism. All socialists are fascists, but not all fascists are socialists. The Boy Blunder is a socialist, which necessarily makes him a fascist.
“He’s a fascist, but we are not allowed to use that word. Of course Mussolini called it corporatism. Find a definition of it you trust from any economics source and check off the Obama policies one after the other.”
Have you ever noticed how much he resembles Mussolini during his speeches?
Several predominant leftist theorists, including Slavoj Zizek, Alain Badiou, and Michael Hardt, would anticipate a “nationalist” orientation as necessary for the fascist definition, not merely consulting the economic realm in the classification.
That said, it would appear that Obama may be progressing the fascist model through its application with a minoritarian nationalist movement, as seen through the extension of the State of Exception to the New Black Panthers. Consistent with Obama’s twenty years of embracing the Reverend Wright’s Marxist black liberation theology (which possesses an extreme racist component, and not surprisingly, is as rabidly anti-Jew as Germany’s 1930s fascist radicals), Obama may be re-appropriating the fascist model to a new application, wielding it against a docile middle class through the passive advocacy of a parasitic welfare state majority.
Careful reading of Zizek, Hardt & Negri, Badiou, Derrida and other post-Marxists shows Obama and the Progressives as a radical evolution of fascism.
He’s all but announced his steady march toward a Cloward-Piven (socialist) collapse of our country. One would have to be ignorant and blind not to see it.
He is a Socialist, and it is Obama vs. the USA.
During the 2008 campaign, he promised to sieze drugs from the pharmaceutical companies. Socialism lite.
Obamacare: pure socialism.
Cap and trade: pure socialism.
Card check: fascist, but also socialist.
Stimulus Bill: kleptocratist.
Having > 30% of his campaign funded by contributions from foreign donors: criminal, not socialist.
Anyone who says Obama isn’t a socialist is merely saying Obama hasn’t been as successful as he would like to be at passing legislation.
Jason — actually it is tricky. Words change meaning. “Liberal” used to mean the opposite of what it means today — which is why many libertarian-types call themselves “classical liberals”. If you keep using the old meaning then you will simply sound confused to most people and they will ignore you.
Fascist, to most people, is synonymous with the Nazis and conjures images of extreme ethnic nationalism, violent suppression of the opposition, and brutality toward other ethnic groups. The bit about statist intervention in the marketplace is ignored.
It can be a worthwhile effort to reclaim an older meaning of a word – which is one reason Liberal Fascism has been helpful and enraging to the Left — but when you take up that task you have to be aware you are fighting an uphill battle against the common understanding of a word.
He’s a fascist, but we are not allowed to use that word. Of course Mussolini called it corporatism. Find a definition of it you trust from any economics source and check off the Obama policies one after the other.
The differences in effect between classical fascists and classical socialists are few. This makes sense if, as I, you do not view the political spectrum as a straight line but instead as a circle. At the bottom of the circle is a completely free, laissez-faire economy. At the top of the circle is complete government control of the economy. You can move from the bottom to the top around the right (thereby being a fascist) or by moving around to the left (thereby being a socialist). But either way you end up with government control of the economy.
I think we can all agree he’s moving toward much greater government control of the economy.
So then the National Socialists of Germany were not really socialists? Way cool.
That means that Stalin no longer has to take the rap for the Austrian Corporal. And vice versa.
Obama wanted a government-run single-payer health care system. That would make him socialist. The only reason we don’t now have one is that he couldn’t get enough people to go along with him.
Rather than propping up or controlling private health insurance companies, he wants them to fail, at which point we will “have no choice” (literally!) but to go to the socialist route.
Obama is not a Socialist? Marxist? Economic Moron? Dilettante? What exactly is he?
Oh, yes…Obama is a “community organizer” trained by Saul Alinsky with a leftist agenda reinforced by his 20 plus year association with people like William Ayers, terrorist, and Jeremiah Wright, White hating, Black Liberation Theologist nut job.
We’re not going to discuss his associations with Hamas and Muslim Brotherhood sympathizers and supporters. Obama is the DESTROYER of Capitalism in America but he has only two years and six months to continue his incredibly destructive policies. God help us.
[…] DAN MITCHELL: Obama is not a “socialist.” […]
“But there is the tricky issue of whether a word should be defined by experts (to the extent economists are experts on anything) or whether it is more appropriate to accept the common understanding of what a word means. ”
hahaha nothing really tricky about that dude – perhaps you meant to say “common misunderstanding of what a word means”