Warren Buffett’s at it again. He has a column in the New York Times complaining that he has been coddled by the tax code and that “rich” people should pay higher taxes.
My first instinct is to send Buffett the website where people can voluntarily pay extra money to the federal government. I’ve made this suggestion to guilt-ridden rich people in the past.
But I no longer give that advice. I’m worried he might actually do it. And even though Buffett is wildly misguided about fiscal policy, I know he will invest his money much more wisely than Barack Obama will spend it.
But Buffett goes beyond guilt-ridden rants in favor of higher taxes. He makes specific assertions that are inaccurate.
Last year my federal tax bill — the income tax I paid, as well as payroll taxes paid by me and on my behalf — was $6,938,744. That sounds like a lot of money. But what I paid was only 17.4 percent of my taxable income — and that’s actually a lower percentage than was paid by any of the other 20 people in our office. Their tax burdens ranged from 33 percent to 41 percent and averaged 36 percent.
His numbers are flawed in two important ways.
1. When Buffett receives dividends and capital gains, it is true that he pays “only” 15 percent of that money on his tax return. But dividends and capital gains are both forms of double taxation. So if he wants honest effective tax rate numbers, he needs to show the 35 percent corporate tax rate.
Moreover, as I noted in a previous post, Buffett completely ignores the impact of the death tax, which will result in the federal government seizing 45 percent of his assets. To be sure, Buffett may be engaging in clever tax planning, so it is hard to know the impact on his effective tax rate, but it will be signficant.
2. Buffett also mischaracterizes the impact of the Social Security payroll tax, which is dedicated for a specific purpose. The law only imposes that tax on income up to about $107,000 per year because the tax is designed so that people “earn” a corresponding retirement benefit (which actually is tilted in favor of low-income workers).
Imposing the tax on multi-millionaire income, however, would mean sending rich people giant checks from Social Security when they retire. But nobody thinks that’s a good idea. Or you could apply the payroll tax to all income and not pay any additional benefits. But this would turn Social Security from an “earned benefit” to a redistribution program, which also is widely rejected (though the left has been warming to the idea in recent years because their hunger for more tax revenue is greater than their support for Social Security).
If we consider these two factors, Buffett’s effective tax rate almost surely is much higher than the burden on any of the people who work for him.
But this entire discussion is a good example of why we should junk the corrupt, punitive, and unfair tax code and replace it with a simple flat tax. With no double taxation and a single, low tax rate, we would know that rich people were paying the right amount, neither too much based on class-warfare tax rates nor too little based on loopholes, deduction, preferences, exemptions, shelters, and credits.
So why doesn’t Buffett endorse this approach? Tim Carney offers a very plausible answer.
For more information about why class-warfare taxes are misguided, this video may be helpful.
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Interesting argument here.
1. Double taxation – sure, if you are the corporation too. Remember, corporation are people. Just kidding. They are kept a seprate entity to protect the individuals. SO you cant count taxes on coporations as taxes on the individual.
2. Death tax – first of all is hilarious you would include a conversation about what will happen to his money after he dies into the conversation of his current taxes. Most people will be happy to give up a lot after they die in order to live a good life now. And finally, as you (kind of) admit it, he likely has good estate planning done already to protect it. Just like most rich people already have. Just google how many people ACTUALLY are impacted by the “death tax”…
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[…] Warren Buffett wants a big tax hike because…well, because he’s bad at math. […]
[…] Warren Buffett wants a big tax hike because…well, because he’s bad at math. […]
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[…] already explained why Warren Buffett is either dishonest or clueless about tax policy. Today, on CNBC, I got to debate the tax scheme that President Obama has named after the Omaha […]
[…] already explained why Warren Buffett is either dishonest or clueless about tax policy. Today, on CNBC, I got to debate the tax scheme that President Obama has named after the Omaha […]
[…] already explained why Warren Buffett is either dishonest or clueless about tax policy. Today, on CNBC, I got to debate the tax scheme that President Obama has named after the Omaha […]
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[…] we shouldn’t surrender is that Buffett is either stupid or dishonest. In previous posts, I’ve exposed his fiscal innumeracy and explained that he is understating his own tax […]
[…] Daniel J. Mitchell notes: I’ve had to correct Warren Buffett when he makes this mistake. One would think, though, that GOP presidential candidates would have a better understanding of […]
Obama said yesterday, “Now I hear folks running around calling this class warfare. This is not class warfare, let me tell you something. Asking a billionaire to pay at least as much as a secretary, that is just common sense. That is common sense.”
My response is
http://wisegoodhonest.blogspot.com/2012/01/common-sense-or-class-warfare.html
Thanks to http://onforb.es/y44MZD for leading me to this video.
[…] […]
[…] poor thing had to pay taxes at a higher rate than her boss does on his dividends. Forbes reported: The IRS publishes detailed tax tables by […]
[…] was disappointed, but not surprised, that he repeated the economically foolish assertion that Warren Buffett pays a lower tax rate than his […]
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[…] was disappointed, but not surprised, that he repeated the economically foolish assertion that Warren Buffett pays a lower tax rate than his […]
[…] to shareholders are must-reading. (2) Economist Daniel J. Mitchell has called Buffett “innumerate” for his opinions on […]
[…] to shareholders are must-reading. (2) Economist Daniel J. Mitchell has called Buffett “innumerate” for his opinions on […]
[…] had to correct Warren Buffett when he makes this mistake. One would think, though, that GOP presidential candidates would have a better understanding of […]
[…] good thing about his plan (and I admit that I’m motivated by pettiness) is that it would tax hypocritical leftists such as Warren Buffett, who argue for higher income tax rates, secure in the knowledge that they will be largely […]
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[…] I’m criticizing Warren Buffett’s innumeracy or explaining how to identify illegitimate loopholes, I frequently write about the perverse impact […]
Brandon, I took your advice and “looked it up.” The US corporate income tax rates for 2011 are much worse than you state: 15% of taxable income up to $50K, 25% of TI on the next $25K, 34% of TI over $75K, and 39% of TI over $100K, up to $335K. After that, the rate varies between 34% and 39%, settling at 35% on TI over $18 million. With those steeply progressive rates, your assertion that “the EFFECTIVE rate is much lower” is pure BS. A corporation with Taxable Income of $1 million would owe $340,000, or 34%! Do you still want to try to argue that the effective corporate is MUCH lower than the statutory rate of 35%? You wrote a lot, but hard facts belie your arrogant tone of superior economic wisdom. Nice try, LIB, you shouldn’t have tried to deal in facts when you don’t know what you are talking about.
[…] its credit, provides a fair description of the issue (including a much-needed acknowledgement that Warren Buffett may not have been honest and/or accurate), and also suggests that Obama may be proposing to replace the existing AMT with this new version […]
[…] its credit, provides a fair description of the issue (including a much-needed acknowledgement that Warren Buffett may not have been honest and/or accurate), and also suggests that Obama may be proposing to replace the existing AMT with this new version […]
[…] its credit, provides a fair description of the issue (including a much-needed acknowledgement that Warren Buffett may not have been honest and/or accurate), and also suggests that Obama may be proposing to replace the existing AMT with this new version […]
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All you have to do is look at Europe now and see the total failure of high taxes and redistribution.
economies*, not economics
So many fallacies in one article by a guy who CLAIMS to know economics.
I can’t believe I actually to think like him and his friends at the Cato Institute. The truth is, the field of economics is WAY MORE DIVERSE and open-ended than guys like Dan Mitchell will EVER let on. They’ll just tell you that “all reasonable economists” or “most economists” believe their staunch anti-government, anti-tax, anti-Keynesian BS. But the fact is, economists are a much more diverse group, and someone who’s ACTUALLY read lots of studies from all across the spectrum, like I have, will tell you that it’s much more complex than saying, “Libertarians have all the answers” or “Liberals have all the answers.”
Actual SURVEYS of economists (I’ve seen at least 3 or 4 studies analyzing this data) show that they’re more left- or right-of-center than straight conservative or straight liberal on most economic issues. They’re fairly moderate overall, except when it comes to international trade, where they seem to be overwhelmingly conservative. They are FAR from believing the libertarian claptrap that groups like Cato advocate.
The sad thing about groups like Cato (or think-tanks IN GENERAL) is that VERY FEW of them are staffed by a majority of actual economists or even people with ECONOMICS DEGREES! Most are just politicos who read a few studies or books here and there and selectively pick the parts that ‘confirm’ their biases and ignore the rest. These people are not scholars by any stretch of the imagination. For example, in a recent Heritage Foundation ‘study’, Dan Mitchell claims that “big government” “harms” growth. Of course, what he DOES NOT tell you is that the effect of government programs DEPENDS ON THE INDIVIDUAL PROGRAM, and you cannot group “big government” by itself as a single entity when considering effects on economic growth. Plus, “big government” is not a robust variable when determining growth.
Has Dan Mitchell ever heard of guys like Joel Slemrod or Peter Lindert? Lindert is an economist who recently published a two-volume study called “Social Spending in the 20th Century”, and he finds that the ACTUAL effects of the welfare state are far exaggerated when it comes to growth. He even proposes that, in some cases, the welfare state may actually COMPLEMENT GROWTH. Slemrod is a well-established tax economist who, among other things, has pretty much discovered that the effects of taxes on the economy are much more nuanced than guys like Mitchell claim. Hell, even guys like William Easterly have put forth studies showing that it’s all but IMPOSSIBLE to determine the ACTUAL effects on the economy from tax policy alone.
Ross and Levine did a study in the mid- or early 90s establishing that MOST ECONOMIC INDICATORS are NOT ROBUST! This means that when you control for OTHER variables, they change wildly even though originally you claimed to establish a correlation between those and some other aspect of economic growth. Economics are much more complex, organic machines, and changing 1 or 2 small aspects like taxation just a bit have little real effect.
These are just a FEW of the brilliant economists outside of Mitchell’s echo chamber who REALLY know what the hell they’re talking about.
Dan Mitchell’s a think-tank robot who loves to PRETEND like he’s an economist who knows what the hell he’s talking about. He’s obviously BIASED in the libertarian direction and selectively picks sources! I, on the other hand, used to be a conservative AND a libertarian, but now, after looking at the FULL evidence, I’m more of a left-leaning moderate on economics. Yes, economics should not be TOTALLY liberal, but more often than not, the right-wing BS that is peddled as “true economics” is absolute nonsense that’s based more on pure theory than any empirical evidence.
Dan cites the 35% corporate tax rate. It is true that the STATUTORY rate is 35%, but the EFFECTIVE rate (which Dan should actually KNOW something about since he claims to be such an expert on taxes) is much lower on average for America and lower than many OTHER nations which actually have lower STATUTORY rates!!! Look it up. So the 35% rate doesn’t mean SQUAT! Did you know there are actually corporations in this country who sometimes get ax REFUNDS from the federal gov’t? GE paid no federal taxes, for one thing. So much for that “high corporate tax rate” BS. It depends on the company, really.
And what’s this bs about “double taxation”? THERE IS NO DOUBLE TAXATION! The capital gains that are taxed are those obtained BY THE CORPORATION, and the dividends that are taxed are those owed by the shareholder. TWO DIFFERENT ENTITIES PAYING TWO DIFF. TAXES. Stop playing semantics. Why can’t we call it “double taxation” when we pay BOTH payroll taxes AND income taxes on the money we earn at work?? Maybe because Mitchell doesn’t give a damn about the middle-class and poor and only shills for the rich while claiming to “know economics”?
A flat tax? right…
Supply-side economics is BULL, pure and simple! It has YET to be empirically proven beyond any reasonable doubt, and the best proponents can come up with are silly arguments to the effect of, “Well, tax rolls increased after Reagan, JFK and Bush cut taxes.” They ALSO did after Clinton ROSE taxes! Your point? Times of economic prosperity produce MORE tax revenue than times of recession. That’s nothing new, and correlation is not causation. The ONE thing I’d love to see from conservatives and libertarians that they have YET to show me to get anywhere close to ‘proving’ supply-side works is to ACTUALLY SURVEY businessmen, esp. big businessmen, and ask them PERSONALLY whether or not they’d make bigger or smaller investments simply because someone rose their PERSONAL income tax rate a little bit, much less pull out of business entirely in a Randian fashion.
Are businessmen in America REALLY that short-sighted and defeatist? These titans of industry who are SUCH “job-creators” cower in fear because taxes are raised just a little bit? Btw, shouldn’t supply-side economics be about CORPORATE tax, not personal? Wouldn’t it be more effective, at the very least, if you’re talking about the RATE BUSINESSES PAY? You expect me to believe that every time some rich guy gets a tax cut, like some business angel, he’s gonna deposit a good chunk of that BACK into the company or start a new business, rather than, say, spend it on a new car or vacation? They’re human, like everyone else!
When a person’s taxes are raised, at least when it comes to making profits, wouldn’t that give them MORE incentive to make even MORE money??? At least, that’s how I’d react. One would think that it would just toughen their resolve to make their enterprises MORE profitable to OFFSET the new taxes, rather than just REDUCE investment and be a frickin pussy.
God forbid we reduce the burden of taxation on THOSE WHO CAN LEAST AFFORD IT and put just a little more on those who can EASILY afford it. Btw, have you guys YET ‘proven’ the Laffer Curve AT ALL? Because I’ve seen guys like Dan’s recent videos, and he STILL uses the bogus graph with a hyperbola with NO NUMBERS! It’s just a big assumption, and they can’t even figure out what the “highest tax rate that can still generate more revenue than the next is.”
The truth of the matter is that AMERICA HAS ONE OF THE LOWEST TAX BURDENS IN THE WORLD! STILL! The rich pay only 35% of their income in federal income tax, and if you’ll recall, not too long ago it was 91%, and even more recently it was 70%. I don’t see why paying, say, an extra 5% is such a big freaking deal. Is ANYONE really gonna cower in fear and stop investing because of a mere 5%?
This is just anti-tax whining and fearmongering. And while we’re on the subject of “redistribution”, yes, god forbid we HELP THE POOR. What about redistribution towards the rich?? Why is it ALWAYS called “redistribution” when it helps the middle-class and poor, but it’s not usually called that for anything else? NEWSFLASH: ALL GOVERNMENT SPENDING IS REDISTRIBUTION! You’re taking the taxes obtained from one person and giving it SOMEONE ELSE, either in the form of government workers’ incomes and benefits, contracts, new government investment (buildings, infrastructure, new agencies, etc.), defense procurement, or transfer payments.
All in all, I agree that one should consider the effective taxation, not the simple standard rates, but while this article does point this out in case of “double taxation,” it brashly asserts that the corporate tax rate is 35% without mention of the fact that the “effective corporate tax rate” is much lower for big corporations.
But of course, the “double taxation” argument helps the conclusion while the “effective corporate tax rate” argument does the opposite. It therefore behooves me to conclude that the author is either not aware of this simple economic fact, unable to articulate it, or dishonest. I guess dishonest.
[…] avoids the point and sidesteps the issue. Dan Mitchell, of the Cato Institute, makes that argument here (along with the asinine dividends are double taxation […]
[…] is true that he pays ‘only’ 15 percent of that money on his tax return,” Mitchell said in a blog posting. “But dividends and capital gains are both forms of double taxation. So he wants honest effective […]
[…] is true that he pays ‘only’ 15 percent of that money on his tax return,” Mitchell said in a blog posting. “But dividends and capital gains are both forms of double taxation. So he wants honest effective […]
So you are labelling Warren Buffet one of the most prominent investors and CAPITALISTS of all time of “innumeracy”…ha, ha, ha !!!
[…] economist Dan Mitchell also points out Buffett’s failure to account for corporate taxes and points to another omission-the […]
[…] economist Dan Mitchell also points out Buffett’s failure to account for corporate taxes and points to another omission-the […]
Dan, there’s no need for this entire post, when “The Joint Committee on Taxation, the Congressional Budget Office and the Treasury” looked at Buffett’s proposal and concluded that it will “generate as much as $500 billion in new revenue over the next decade”.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/16/business/buffett-calls-on-congress-to-raise-taxes-on-the-rich.html?_r=2&ref=business
What a joke!
50B annual increase is a measly 3.5-4% of the annual budget deficit!
It’s the equivalent of someone spending every year $10,000 over what they earn annually, then they get a $350-400 raise. Is that some cause for celebration? Would that “put a significant dent” in the “budget shortfall”??
I’ve said it before, but I’ll say it again, Buffet is already rich. He’s established. He has a net worth of something like $40 BILLION. That’s income that’s already earned, and thus, wouldn’t be touched by higher taxes. Up and comers on the other hand, people just getting their foot in the door, new money, entrepreneurs and potential competition to him and his businesses however WOULD BE CRUSHED. New investment would drop off, new jobs, creation, the whole 9 yards, gone. Buffet is being completely dishonest, like others have said if Buffet feels so bad about the situation he’d cut a check yesterday. He wouldn’t hire expensive tax handlers to find him the maximum number of loopholes and deductions. Buffet is NOT after paying more of his money to the government, but rather, he is ALL about making others pay more of theirs. People who don’t have the assets he has, who can’t afford tax attorneys, who don’t have holdings like he does, and who aren’t getting kick backs from the government.
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[…] Warren Buffett’s Fiscal Innumeracy – International Liberty: “Warren Buffett’s at it again. He has a column in the New York Times complaining that he has been coddled by the tax code and that “rich” people should pay higher taxes. My first instinct is to send Buffett the website where people can voluntarily pay extra money to the federal government. I’ve made this suggestion to guilt-ridden rich people in the past.” Share this:ShareEmailPrintRedditFacebookDiggTags: taxes /* […]
[…] — Dan Mitchell and Timothy Carney offer other rebuttals of […]
“How does a flat tax get workers in the underground economy to pay taxes as suggested by genomega1? If the government doesn’t know you have income, how do they tax the income?”
I thought that anyone could complete the dots. A fair flat tax to replace the income tax. Next a graduated Tax, VAT maybe so when gang banging drug dealing thugs buy a new $100,000.00 ride they get to pay their fair share.
Obama is big on everyone paying their fair share but exempts his supporters.
Buffett has probably figured out that while he is an influential man, it is very unlikely that the tax vs. no-tax public opinion camps are so close to each other in strength that his own opinion will be the one that changes the debate’s final outcome.
So, he has most likely figured out that the probability of his phony opinion altering the eventual policy choice is probably less than 1%. On the other hand, the PR benefits of his pro-tax advertising campaign and sensationalism are all his to keep and so is the significant political favoritism he may be able to extract by becoming an ideological ally of the current administration. Obviously, high tax rates cannot be imposed on him exclusively, just because he seems to publicly come out in favor of high taxes.
Therefore one does not have to be Buffett to realize that the rational strategy under such circumstances is to cater to a public majority who has demonstrated its vulnerability to being bamboozled by the delusional economic theory of “prosperity through decreased incentives to produce (i.e. prosperity through redistribution)”, while at the same time keep your money and keep making more.
So, the innumeracy is on the public side, on the majority of voters who consume Buffet’s personal PR campaign. Buffet knows what he is doing, a simple public campaign with measurable benefits and almost negligible risk. So the choice to someone like Buffett, steeped in risk reward analysis, is obvious: Keep your money (have you seen him volunteer to donate 50% of his wealth to the people?) and pay lip service to a public who will naturally gravitate towards the short term benefits of redistribution at the polls, at the expense of a mid-long term irreversible destiny of economic decline.
The story of American decline continues…
[…] least should understand the wisdom behind it. If you were one of few people I know, or one of the rich pundits who criticized Buffett for not understanding economics, I would argue that both you and he probably know exactly what he meant, but he is the one with the […]
Please explain how the Bush tax cuts widened the gap between the have and have-nots.
Fact: The Bush tax cuts created 10 million jobs and increased the cash flow to the treasury by 100s of billion $$.
Look it up don’t listen to the propaganda.
Mr. Warren Buffett is a saint and this obvious use of the “class warfare” is an attempt to incite people. What good has the Bush tax cuts done besides widening the gap between the have and the have-nots?
Redistribution is fine when it’s going up but not going down?
“So if he wants honest effective tax rate numbers, he needs to show the 35 percent corporate tax rate.”
And if you wanted honest effective tax rate numbers, you’d need to show the 35 percent corporate tax rate applied to the secretary who works there.
The secretary also is impacted by the 35 corporate income rate because of fungibility of funds within the organization. But if she’s well paid and in the top bracket, then her marginal income is also taxed at 35% over the limit and Buffett’s is taxed at 15%.
Two persons. Same organization. Two tax rates.
The wealthier of the two receives a 20% relative to income reduction in taxes. You’re not even arguing for a flat tax, you’re arguing for a regressive tax.
When Mr. Buffet writes The US Treasury Department a check for 50% of his current personal worth, than I will believe that he is sincere in his concern that the rest of us pay too few taxes.
I don’t think that is going to happen, though. Mr. Buffet is more likely engaged in a bit of under the table rent seeking, as he must see some particular advantage for his business model if his prospective aquisitions are further hobbled by draconian tax levies. Fire sale estate liquidations to satisfy the inheritance tax wouldn’t be the real point of his declaration of love for additional looting of the US economy by the Uber State, woud it?
Oh, I get it. Tremendous wealth is equivalent to tremendous knowledge and wisdom. So we should appoint Presidents on the basis of net worth, no? Obviously the wealthiest Americans know what is best for the rest of us, hence our deference to Warren Buffett’s opinions. Increase taxes on the wealthy? Great idea. Must be, a rich man said it. Warren doesn’t need all of his billions, he can’t even decide what to do with all the money. He’s probably got stacks of money moldering in his basement; it would be better to give it to the bureaucrats in D.C., who are in a much better position to know where it will provide the greatest economic stimulus. They’re really good at that. The market is pretty inefficient about allocating resources, after all, and wise and knowledgeable though Buffett is, he doesn’t have the time to fix our economy himself, what with his wind farms and all.
Buffet is a buffoon.
Buffett does not create jobs. He is not an investor. He is a stock market speculator. The only reason that he gets any attention is that he has been successful and portrays himself as a country boy.
Buying stocks is not economic investment!
He is an aging clown and a victim of his own press.
The only thing good about raising the taxes on the greatly wealthy would be more art exhibits at the MOMA.
Christ! The man is puerile in his personal life.
He has cracker tastes.
He has never built anything.
He’s a pig.
He is repulsive from the left or the right.
But he got money!
If Buffet’s success makes him right, as some posters claim, I’m sure the same goes for the Koch brothers! And if they aren’t rich enough to carry weight, those posters should go ask Carlos Slim for his views on taxation, since he’s wealthier than Buffet.
“The real issue is why is our governmnet spending so much more money today than even 5 years ago.”
And the answer is, because of people like Mr Buffett. The extremely wealthy wield immense political power in this country, and they use it to further a big government agenda. So let’s tax Buffett and those like him till they squeal. That does not mean a tax on income, obviously, as Buffett is skilled at avoiding those. It’s time for a wealth tax.
How does a flat tax get workers in the underground economy to pay taxes as suggested by genomega1? If the government doesn’t know you have income, how do they tax the income?
A consumption tax however is likely to get at the underground economy. A hoodlum buys a BMW today in most any state in the US and he/she gets bitten by a sales tax, often approaching 10%, yet not one dime is paid to the US Treasury.
But all of this is only sidebar. The real issue is why is our governmnet spending so much more money today than even 5 years ago. That’s got to be the focus, not revenue, not at least until our bloated government is finally lean, and that’s why the Tea Party is right on target. Kill the beast and stop trying to find more ways to feed it.
Im so sure Mr. Warren Buffett didn’t account for some things (sarcasm). His knowledge and attention to every detail has served him well. If only the men and women in his particular situation carried a fraction of his values, then this world would be a better place. I guess some people have to argue. The earth being round, Sliced Bread, and the Light bulb all had nay sayers like Mr Mitchell here. Luckily good prevails. Thank you Mr. Buffett for setting the standard. Past, present, and future generations will always look kindly upon you good sir.
Dividends paid deduction? And how is the gain on the sale of a traded security taxed at corporate level?
Don’t want to pay estate tax? Plan ahead for dispositions to minimize disruptions to active businesses and maximize transfers to your heirs. Beyond the limits of planning, it might help to consider the equitableness of accessions to wealth by legatees without tax burden. Earn it, find it, steal it and it’s taxable. Why should things be different if you inherit it?
Radically greater progressivity in the social security (and medicare) tax through much higher cutoffs is a legislatively and administratively easy way to cover entitlement expansion costs. Might as well brace for impact on that one. Just try to think of it as a flat tax.
The problem that people have determining Buffett’s income and tax rate is that he doesn’t need any income. When you have forty billion in net worth you really don’t need to show much income and Buffett doesn’t. The vehicle that he used to create his wealth is – at bottom – an insurance company and insurance companies have an unusual ability to shelter income and wealth. For example in 2010 Berkshire Hathaway (BRK/A) had $136 billion in revenue. Keep in mind that the company is basically a holding company, in other words, it does not make anything. Yet it reported $117 billion in operating expenses; that’s a loThe problem that people have determining Buffett’s income and tax rate is that he doesn’t need any income. When you have forty billion in net worth you really don’t need to show much income and Buffett doesn’t. The vehicle that he used to create his wealth is – at bottom – an insurance company and insurance companies have an unusual ability to shelter income and wealth. For example in 2010 Berkshire Hathaway (BRK/A) had $136 billion in revenue. Keep in mind that the company is basically a holding company, in other words, it does not make anything. Yet it reported $117 billion in operating expenses; that’s a lot for a corporation that doesn’t make anything. That’s because it was able to deduct nearly $28 billion in “losses, benefits and adjustments.” That line item is a slop bucket into which you can throw just about anything.
Buffett may know as much about avoiding taxes as anyone in the country because he became wealthy in two ways: (1) avoiding taxes and (2) getting special deals from companies that needed his money.
You may notice that he’s left most of his money to charitable trusts rather than having it taxed at over 50% at this death. He’s in favor of other people paying taxes and wants the press adulation from the usual Liberal sources for being in favor of higher taxes.
I have nothing against the old man making as much money as he can, legally. What I have a problem with is preaching what he doesn’t practice. On the tax front, he’s a old fraud.
t for a corporation that doesn’t make anything. That’s because it was able to deduct nearly $28 billion in “losses, benefits and adjustments.” That line item is a slop bucket into which you can throw just about anything.
Buffett may know as much about avoiding taxes as anyone in the country because he became wealthy in two ways: (1) avoiding taxes and (2) getting special deals from companies that needed his money.
You may notice that he’s left most of his money to charitable trusts rather than having it taxed at over 50% at this death. He’s in favor of other people paying taxes and wants the press adulation from the usual Liberal sources for being in favor of higher taxes.
I have nothing against the old man making as much money as he can, legally. What I have a problem with is preaching what he doesn’t practice. On the tax front, he’s a old fraud.
“To all those suggesting that Buffet simply “pay more taxes”… That big whooshing sound is you missing the point.”
Then Buffet failed at making his point, and you failed and clarifying his point.
Which makes me wonder if there’s a point at all.
(Except that, yes, I get it. You want to steal more of my money and say you’re only taking it from the “rich”.)
If you think that Buffett works 9 to 5 at a widget factory to make money, which he then invests and sees dividends and capital gains on, I suppose you could see that as “double taxation”.
Of course it is no more “double taxation” than when a burger flipper pays taxes on income, and then sales tax when he buys gasoline.
And of course Buffett does not work at the widget factory to earn money to invest. The money he invests is money he has made on previous investments.
There’s no rational justification for treating investment income differently than other income.
To all those suggesting that Buffet simply “pay more taxes”… That big whooshing sound is you missing the point.
“dividends and capital gains are both forms of double taxation.”
As opposed to which other forms of taxation?
“So if he wants honest effective tax rate numbers, he needs to show the 35 percent corporate tax rate.”
But corporations do NOT pay a 35% tax rate. I don’t know the exact figures for Buffett’s outfit, but e.g. Microsoft had a 7% tax rate last year.
And I forgot to argue that I see nothing to support taxing capital gains at anything less than the rate for earned income. Income is income, whatever form it takes. An additional dollar in an investor’s pocket has the same value as an additional dollar in the pocket of somebody working in a factory.
Claiming that it is special is bogus. Investors invest less on the tax rate and more on whether the company they invest in will be successful. If they have to wait for a return on their investment, they’ll factor that into their investment decisions.
And to anyone (hint, hint) who would argue that investment will dry up without favorable tax treatment, buying an NYSE listed stock isn’t an investment in the sense that investing in a start up is, it’s more akin to buying a lottery ticket. If you wanted to limit the special treatment to those investing in start ups, that would be somewhat different, but granting me a low tax rate on my gambling profits is fundamentally unsupportable.
I feel sorry for Mr. Buffett. The poor man is so financially ignorant that he doesn’t know how to pay more taxes (his fair share). For a modest fee, starting with a $10,000,000 non-refundable retainer, I volunteer to find him a team of experts who can assist him in finding a path forward to paying the higher taxes he truly believes he deserves to pay.
Does that idiot really believe we are so dumb to believe he really, really, really wants to pay more taxes and should be foreced to do so?
The problem with the above is the “Rich” that are taxed are those that are attempting to become rich. The true rich have their money in non-taxable government bonds. No one in DC is actually suggesting taxing the Government bonds and actually taxing the rich.
OK, let me see…believe Warren Buffet, one of the most successful financial investors in the history of the universe, who is speaking directly against his own self-interests…or believe you, Dan Mitchell.
Um, if it’s OK with you, I’m going to go with Buffett. You know, the whole “those who can, do; and those who can’t, teach” thing (and I’m a teacher!).
Wealthy people don’t sit around and say, “Oh, if only I had more income, I’d finally open that factory and employ hundreds of people.” Rather, they open a factory/business when and if it stands to benefit them. Period. It’s not about giving them more money to work with. They have plenty.
Just as a guy with only a hammer sees everything as a nail, so too do ‘flat tax’ advocates see that as the solution to all that is wrong. Buffett complains about taxes? Flat tax. Economy not growing fast enough? Flat tax. Can’t get a date on Saturday night? Flat tax. The enthusiasm with which advocates push a flat tax is indicative that it isn’t – and can’t be – all that it is cranked up to be.
The flat tax does nothing to simplify the calculation of what is income/revenue and what, if anything, should be subtracted to determine the tax due. When exactly does a company recognize payments received over a period of time? What expenses are to be deducted to determine income? And how are those expenses calculated? Inventory? Depreciation of capital expenditures? Anyone who has spent time doing tax returns knows a good part of the complexity is due to these types of questions, and the flat tax does nothing to make this any easier.
While having a single tax rate is easy, having multiple (even progressive) rates adds very little complexity and time to preparing a tax return, as the hardest part is (per the above) figuring out what is the income that is to be taxed. Multiplying that amount by a rate that varies with the amount of income is no big deal. While I’d love a low rate, claiming that we need a single rate because of the complexity of the tax code is misleading… at best.
By the way, you missed a shot at Buffett, specifically his comment that “The mega-rich pay income taxes at a rate of 15 percent on most of their earnings but pay practically nothing in payroll taxes”. If the rich are paying a 15% rate, that means they’ve structured their income to be in the form of investment income, they don’t have any wage compensation. No wages, no payroll taxes. People don’t get taxed on what they don’t earn.
And while I’m at it, why do people think so highly of Buffett? Neither he nor his companies create lots of jobs. His skill is in identifying under-priced stocks. It’s nice, but it does next to nothing to grow the economy. I’d take five Google/Facebook founders any day over the likes of Buffett.
What about a .01% tax on unrealized capital gains? That is, every year one takes the current value of assets (stocks, bonds, etc) and subtracts the purchase price. We could have an exemption of, say, $2 million dollars. This would basically only affect Buffett and a few other paper billionaires (it would really hurt Zuckerburg) but very, very few would have to pay. As other’s pointed out, Buffett is taxed on what he actually earns or cashes out on, not on the wealth in the form of stock.
3) Buffet isn’t ignoring the death tax – he’s stated his plan to spend his estate in charitable giving before he dies.
Wait…what? Why is he trying to cheat the government out of his money by doing what he wants to do with it? Clearly, based on his editorial the government should get its bite upon death.
So a self-made multi-billionaire suffers from “fiscal innumeracy?” To take the issues pointed out in the article in the same numerical order:
1) Arguing double taxation when firms like GE make a profit and pay no taxes is rather innumerant.
2) What Buffet is saying about payroll taxes is that they disproportionally affect lower and middle income people. You could increase the top tax rate greatly to get the same proportional effect.
3) Buffet isn’t ignoring the death tax – he’s stated his plan to spend his estate in charitable giving before he dies.
Forget the SS tax thing; forget the flat tax, forget what his “effective” tax rate is. Buffett is a savvy businessman…he should know that wealth isn’t found on the income statement, it is found on the balance sheet. Taxing income isn’t taxing wealth; someone can make $30K/year and be a multi millionaire, while another can make $1MM/year, and be bankrupt. Wealth…that which makes someone “rich”…is found in the difference between one’s assets and one’s liabilities, not in his paycheck. Mr. Buffett, I’m proposing that each year, anyone with a net worth of over $1 billion should have to send a personal balance sheet to the IRS, and taxed on that net worth at a rate of 50%.
Now, let’s all hold our collective breath and see how long it takes for Buffett to agree to a tax on TRUE wealth.
[…] MITCHELL: Warren Buffett’s Fiscal Innumeracy. “Buffett goes beyond guilt-ridden rants in favor of higher taxes. He makes specific […]
There is another explanation. Simply: If you pay for something, you own it.
Indeed a flat tax is needed to get more skin in the game. 51% of working people pay no income taxes at all, but do get a check every year `EIC` for as much as $5,666 with three or more qualifying children. This is flat out redistribution.
Millions work in the underground economy and pay nothing. The Govt puts that number $2 trillion +.
Billions in the Illegal drug trade, prostitution, etc. A flat tax is the only way to get at this money.
Isn’t he free to send a personal check to the Treasury Dept. today if he wishes? I don’t think there’s any law preventing him. To wit ( http://bit.ly/ojU8kP )