Here’s an appropriate post for today. Having just watched a Bloggingheads.tv debate between Will Wilkinson and Jonah Goldberg on the topic of patriotism, it got me thinking about whether advocates of limited government can love (or at least have warm and fuzzy thoughts about) their country. I think it is correct to say that libertarians are understandably suspicious of patriotism if it means nationalism (my nation is good, so your nation must be bad). But some libertarians, including Will, think any patriotism is undesirable because it can be harnessed to statism. That’s a danger, to be sure, but I’ve always interpreted patriotism as support for the ideals of a nation rather than its government. That’s why the sentiments in this image match my definition of patriotism.
That being said, I’ll be the first to admit that patriotism in not a particularly rational sentiment. One could live in Switzerland, Hong Kong, or the Cayman Islands and be part of a culture that is based on ideals that are at least somewhat similar to what we have in America. So why feel any special warmth for the United States? In large part, it is an accident of birth. Many of us feel affection to America because that’s where we were raised – in the same way we may feel loyalty to sports teams based on our hometowns (Go Yankees!) or where we went to school (Go Dawgs!).
Here’s my two-part quiz. One question deals with a trivial topic, and the other one revolves around something more profound. In both cases, though, I’d be interested in feedback on whether affirmative answers put one on a slippery slope to statism.
1. Do you want athletes representing the United States to win international contests such as the World Cup, Olympics, Ryder Cup, and Davis Cup – even if you don’t follow the sport?
2. Even if you disagree with nation building and want the US out of Iraq and/or Afghanistan, do you want America to prevail in military battles? On a related note, would you rather have 100 (or 1,000) Taliban or Al Qaeda fighters die or one US soldier die?
The first question (at least I assume) is easy. Wanting your nation to win a contest presumably does not imply that you want to persecute other countries, invade other countries, or even have negative thoughts about another nation or its people. I also don’t see how it could imply anything bad on the domestic front. Wanting the US to do well in the Olympics, for example, does not have any implications for big government or small government (am I missing something?). Heck, if I understand correctly, the United States (to its credit) does not even finance national teams with tax monies.
The second question is a lot harder. For all intents and purposes, an affirmative response means you value an American life over a foreign life. I’m not an expert on foreign policy, so I don’t pretend to know exactly what the United States should have done in the aftermath of 9-11. But I know I’m not a fan of nation building, so I don’t want endless occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan in the futile hope of transforming them into democracies. Nonetheless, I instinctively want nothing but good results for the soldiers and others who are stationed there. And if shooting happens, I want all the casualties on the other side. I don’t think these views make me a bad libertarian, but I welcome your thoughts.
That being said, I’ll be the first to admit that patriotism in not a particularly rational sentiment. One could live in Switzerland, Hong Kong, or the Cayman Islands and be part of a culture that is based on ideals that are at least somewhat similar to what we have in America. So why feel any special warmth for the United States? In large part, it is an accident of birth. Many of us feel affection to America because that’s where we were raised – in the same way we may feel loyalty to sports teams based on our hometowns (Go Yankees!) or where we went to school (Go Dawgs!).
Here’s my two-part quiz. One question deals with a trivial topic, and the other one revolves around something more profound. In both cases, though, I’d be interested in feedback on whether affirmative answers put one on a slippery slope to statism.
1. Do you want athletes representing the United States to win international contests such as the World Cup, Olympics, Ryder Cup, and Davis Cup – even if you don’t follow the sport?
2. Even if you disagree with nation building and want the US out of Iraq and/or Afghanistan, do you want America to prevail in military battles? On a related note, would you rather have 100 (or 1,000) Taliban or Al Qaeda fighters die or one US soldier die?
The first question (at least I assume) is easy. Wanting your nation to win a contest presumably does not imply that you want to persecute other countries, invade other countries, or even have negative thoughts about another nation or its people. I also don’t see how it could imply anything bad on the domestic front. Wanting the US to do well in the Olympics, for example, does not have any implications for big government or small government (am I missing something?). Heck, if I understand correctly, the United States (to its credit) does not even finance national teams with tax monies.
The second question is a lot harder. For all intents and purposes, an affirmative response means you value an American life over a foreign life. I’m not an expert on foreign policy, so I don’t pretend to know exactly what the United States should have done in the aftermath of 9-11. But I know I’m not a fan of nation building, so I don’t want endless occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan in the futile hope of transforming them into democracies. Nonetheless, I instinctively want nothing but good results for the soldiers and others who are stationed there. And if shooting happens, I want all the casualties on the other side. I don’t think these views make me a bad libertarian, but I welcome your thoughts.
International Liberty 
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[…] 2010, I contemplated the challenging issue of libertarians and patriotism. My view, for what it’s worth, is […]
[…] Perhaps because of an irrational form of patriotism, I’m fairly certain that I will always live in the United States and I will be fighting to preserve (or restore) liberty until my last breath. […]
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[…] myself irked by Mr. Snowden’s behavior. Some people believe he is a genuine patriot (in the proper sense of the word) motivated by libertarian principles, but the fact that he fled to Russia (perhaps en route to […]
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[…] 4. And in general, libertarians are ultra-individualists who reject concepts such as community, family, and nation. While it’s true that libertarians are motivated by individual freedom, opposition to government coercion does not imply that people can’t be good neighbors or good parents. Indeed, we would argue that a free society promotes private virtue. And there’s nothing inconsistent with patriotism and libertarianism, as illustrated by this t-shirt. […]
[…] because of an irrational form of patriotism, I’m fairly certain that I will always live in the United States and I will be fighting to […]
[…] because of an irrational form of patriotism, I’m fairly certain that I will always live in the United States and I will be fighting to […]
Since sport and sports are an extension of the war mentality, I find that both your examples are related … I want my team to win – no matter the scenario. And since casualties are a by-product of sport and war, I want them to be minimilized for my “side”. This doesn’t mean I have a particular ill-will for the opposition and want them obliterated … I just want my side to have as few casualties as possible – however that comes to pass. On a related note, I wholly embrace your tee shirt sentiment …
[…] Like this t-shirt that shows the proper definition of patriotism. […]
[…] Like this t-shirt that shows the proper definition of patriotism. […]
[…] not being jingoistic. Yes, I am a patriot in the right sense of the word, so I would like the United States to be at the top of most […]
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[…] not being jingoistic. Yes, I am a patriot in the right sense of the word, so I would like the United States to be at the top of most […]
I could care less for sports that have little interest to me … I’m more concerned with the Yankees winning than if the U.S. wins a baseball medal in international competition (though how can we lose at our own game?) … But I respect the jobs our military airmen, marines,sailors and soldiers do and wish them nothing short of 100% success in any endeavor and especially so in any conflict … They allow me to enjoy the Yankees play – and win.
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1) Yes. There are a few instances when the “story” of some other competitor is so compelling/interesting, or the US team is composed of such d-bags, that I’ll root for there other guy, but it’s extremely rare. Above all though, I want to see a truly good match.
2) Yes. As a practical matter, no caveats. Theoretically, America could conceivably become so rotten that I might feel otherwise, but I don’t see that happening anytime soon.
[…] not sure why I like it so much, but it may be related to why this t-shirt makes me want to fight for liberty. Rate this:Share this:PrintEmailFacebookTwitterMoredeliciousDiggFarkLinkedInRedditStumbleUponLike […]
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Obama has already answered Q2 by rules of engagement that needlessly cause more soldiers to die in Afghanistan to minimize Taliban lives lost.
[…] you can probably imagine, that was not an effective argument. As this t-shirt indicates, my patriotism is to the ideals of the Founding Fathers, not to the statist actions of the U.S. […]
[…] lesson to be learned, thought, isn’t that we should fear big government (though we should, as this t-shirt makes clear), but that statism destroys the human spirit. Rate this: Share […]
Do you value the life of an American soldier over the life of 1000 Taliban? I suspect that the answer reveals whether you believe the Taliban are evil and the US is acting in what it perceives as defense, or you believe that the Taliban are harmless people who would mind their own business if only the Big Bad USA wouldn’t go trying to stop them from taking over villages, throwing acid in women’s faces, and beating grocers who don’t keep the “female” tomatoes far enough from the “male” cucumbers.
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#2 – yes, I would rather 100 or 1000 Taliban be killed than one US soldier.
Similarly, I would rather 100 or 1000 US citizen mafiosi be killed rather than one honest cop.
There’s a difference between guilty and innocent people. Since I *do* believe that ALL people, both Americans and non, have God given human rights, I’m ok with US or other forces killing those guilty of oppression.
The tough part is changing from 100 guilty Taliban, to 50 guilty Taliban AND 50 passive non-Taliban Afghans.
Or 50 mafiosi and 50 innocent Americans. In the latter case, supporting a program to bring to justice the guilty, which also kills some innocents, becomes problematic somewhere… much sooner when innocent Americans are killed than when non-Taliban Afghans are killed.
Hope you had a happy 4th!
[…] I’m interested in how to get people to believe in freedom, not vote Republican, so I’m not sure what to think about the Harvard study. But my Republican friends can probably make a few snarky observations about whether patriotism is inconsistent with being a Democrat. My thoughts on patriotism, meanwhile, can be found here. […]
[…] Time for some old-fashioned patriotism. […]
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[…] Even though it’s considered a bit uncouth among some libertarians, I do have certain patriotic impulses. I’m not about to surrender my nation to the plundering thieves from […]
I agree wholeheartedly that my patriotism is based on the ideals of America’s founding, and not its government.
That said, I think question #2 has a component built in that you’re not taking account of. Al Qaeda and the Taliban are not merely foreign, they are also morally reprehensible. I indeed value American lives more than that of the Taliban or Al Qaeda, but I also similarly value any such non-Taliban or non-Al Qaeda life.
I think a more meaningful question would be whether you’d rather 100 Afghani civilians die or one U.S. soldier.
I loved George Patton’s line. Paraphrasing, you don’t want to die for your country. You want the other guy to die for his country.
That is the same approach we should take with our soldiers. We don’t want them to die for our country, but, we want them to help others to die for their country.
Paul,
“Those Americans are just as much oppressors of others as the Taliban, and their loss would not particularly affect me.”
So you are saying that the Hollywood celebs are denying your daughter or sister the right to an education. You are saying that the greedy politician forces you to witness public executions of homosexual men and lesbian women.
Maybe I’m just more apprehensive of what tyranny really means because I grew up in its neighborhood, and because I walked on the east side of the Berlin Wall while the Soviets still had their tanks stationed a block or two away from the free world. But I still think that comparing corrupt American politicians to the Taliban is elevating the Taliban to something they’re not. Most of all, that comparison is insulting to the Afghans who can barely even dream of tasting the moderate freedom you enjoy every day.
I don’t support the British or English national athletes or sports teams (I’m English), mainly because I don’t follow any of those sports. If I did, I hope that I wouldn’t support the British/English competitor(s) simply because they are British/English.
I do follow American football and baseball. Since I don’t live there I had no geographic allegiance to a particular team (and again, I hope I wouldn’t support a team just because its stadium happens to be closest to me). I tried to see if I could work out which would be the most beneficent team to support (given that ‘my’ team winning is likely to make me happy, and my team winning likely to make me sad, I wanted to pick the teams with the highest expected number of wins over my lifetime). I pretty much gave up on that after 5 minutes and just picked a top 10 team pretty much at random.
I don’t think supporting your national athletes simply because they represent your nation makes anyone a ‘bad libertarian’, it’s just irrational and collectivist.
I oppose the war in Afghanistan, and I did oppose the war in Iraq (British troops have now left Iraq). I also oppose British soldiers. This is a pretty unusual (not to mention unpopular) position, as most people ‘support the troops, oppose the war’. I don’t think it’s possible to separate the two, given that the British military is a 100% volunteer force.
These are men and women who have chosen of their own free will to agree, indeed to swear an oath and enter into a legal contract to do near enough whatever their superiors tell them to do, and to spend monies stolen in taxes at the point of a gun in order to do so. They signed up knowing they could be sent on aggressive, illegitimate foreign wars like those in Iraq and Afghanistan but they signed up anyway. Indeed, the wars there have lasted longer than a term of service in the armed forces so every single soldier, sailor, marine and airman there has either joined or re-joined the forces while the war was in progress.
Volunteering in the Swiss army would be one thing, a Swiss soldier may be robbing taxpayers but at least he is doing so knowing the only time he will ever do violence is in defence of the people he robbed. British and American soldiers volunteer not only to rob their own people, but to wage war on another people, virtually none of whom have ever attacked Britain or America nor would have wanted to if there hadn’t been an ample supply of volunteers to wage such a war.
Interesting questions, Dan, and here’s my “vote”:
1. I mostly support U.S. competitors in international competitions, though not always. Sometimes, when I don’t like the public persona of a competitor (I can’t say I don’t like the person, because the public persona is not the person), I’ll root for the foreignor. Sometimes I’ll root for the foreignor if he or she is an underdog. I have an affinity for underdogs, as do a lot of people. Goes back to that whole David v Goliath, thing, perhaps, though such support is not universal.
I would be less likely to support American teams if our federal government were involved in supporting those teams with tax dollars for the sake of encouraging patriotism.
2. I am not in favor of nation building on the ground. I’d be perfectly in favor of a president who said to, say, Sudan, “If you keep killing off your citizens, we are going to level your capitol city. Okay?”
I believe all human beings are created equal, and all ought to have the freedom to live life the way they choose, as long as their choices don’t immediately and overtly take the rights away from others. I further believe we have an obligation to encourage other countries to recognize those liberties.
1 American life vs. 100 Taliban lives? Again, it depends. Is that 1 American defending the freedom of our citizens or protecting the freedom of others? Are the 100 Taliban fighters trying to deprive us or others of their lives or freedom? If yes, then I would say the one defender of freedom is worth the lives of way more than 100 oppressors (and by oppressors I mean those who would deprive others of their choices, not those who offer choices which people later might regret having made).
OTOH, there are Americans whose lives are not really worth all that much to me–the rich celebrity who lives in Southern California and drives and flies all over the place but who would tell me I’m evil for driving my SUV for the 7-minute commute to work I have to do 185 days a year. The politician who buys votes with tax dollars and accuses the small businessman who creates real jobs of being greedy. Those Americans are just as much oppressors of others as the Taliban, and their loss would not particularly affect me.
Is the latter answer unpatriotic? If Obama has his way and turns the U.S. into a socialist state, then I will feel nothing about this country at all. What makes our country special is the freedom it has historically afforded its citizens, freedoms the socialists would take away at the point of a gun.
Dan, we feel love and patriotism for our country because of our Military and the fact that we’ve won just about every single War we’ve ever been involved in, from 1776 to the War of 1812, Mexican War, Spanish-American War, WWI, WWII, and more recently Grenada, Panama, Persian Gulf War, Bosnia, War in Afghanistan and War in Iraq.
The only Wars we ever lost were Vietnam, of course, and Somalia (Clinton’s disaster). Tie in Korea.
Is it so wrong to feel a certain sense of pride in that record? Is it wrong for a Libertarian to be proud of our Winning Wars?
As a Veteran, one of a precious few in the libertarian movement, I’ve always maintained non-Veteran male libertarians just don’t get it. Like it or not, non-Veteran male libertarians end up being contemptuous of War and ultimately of the Military.
They’ll never admit that, of course. But if you ask me, it’s a certain sense of jealousy and envvy for those of us who have served.
Eric Dondero, USN Veteran (Hon.), 1981-85
As an immigrant in this country I probably feel more patriotic than many Americans. My main reason is that I believe America is basically the only full-fledged attempt to implement the principles of individual and economic freedom. The problems we have today are due to the fact that our Founding Fathers could not conceptualize the need for economic-freedom safeguards. Compare the Commerce Clause in the U.S. constitution to the equivalent in the Confederate constitution: in less than a century the insight into the needs to put a leash on government had risen to the level where it was deemed necessary to put it in the constitution.
Bottom line: if you were to write the Constitution today I bet its Commerce Clause would sound a lot more like the Confederate version.
I am a lot more optimistic about America’s future. The Obama administration is the last attack of socialism on the American project. Their over-reach and destructive policies will cause a reaction strong enough to destroy the radical left as a political force in this country. The Democrats will be out of power for a long time – provided Republicans like Paul Ryan get to set the GOP agenda for the next 20-25 years. And my sense is that there is a generational shift underway in the GOP. The old country-club/Ivy-League Republicans of Bush’s kind and generation are on their way out.
Having said that, I also know that the GOP can masterfully screw up even the most generous opportunities served to them on a silver platter. IOW I am cautiously optimistic about America’s future – with an eye on what is going on in the Canadian backyard…