On this day last year, I posted two charts that I developed using the Minneapolis Federal Reserve Bank’s interactive website.
Those two charts showed that the current recovery was very weak compared to the boom of the early 1980s.
But perhaps that was an unfair comparison. Maybe the Reagan recovery started strong and then hit a wall. Or maybe the Obama recovery was the economic equivalent of a late bloomer.
So let’s look at the same charts, but add an extra year of data. Does it make a difference?
Meh…not so much.
Let’s start with the GDP data. The comparison is striking. Under Reagan’s policies, the economy skyrocketed. Heck, the chart prepared by the Minneapolis Fed doesn’t even go high enough to show how well the economy performed during the 1980s.
Under Obama’s policies, by contrast, we’ve just barely gotten back to where we were when the recession began. Unlike past recessions, we haven’t enjoyed a strong bounce. And this means we haven’t recovered the output that was lost during the downturn.
This is a damning indictment of Obamanomics
Indeed, I made this point several months ago when analyzing some work by Nobel laureate Robert Lucas. And it’s been highlighted more recently by James Pethokoukis of the American Enterprise Institute and the news pages of the Wall Street Journal.
Unfortunately, the jobs chart is probably even more discouraging. As you can see, employment is still far below where it started.
This is in stark contrast to the jobs boom during the Reagan years.
So what does this mean? How do we measure the human cost of the foregone growth and jobs that haven’t been created?
Writing in today’s Wall Street Journal, former Senator Phil Gramm and budgetary expert Mike Solon compare the current recovery to the post-war average as well as to what happened under Reagan.
If in this “recovery” our economy had grown and generated jobs at the average rate achieved following the 10 previous postwar recessions, GDP per person would be $4,528 higher and 13.7 million more Americans would be working today. …President Ronald Reagan’s policies ignited a recovery so powerful that if it were being repeated today, real per capita GDP would be $5,694 higher than it is now—an extra $22,776 for a family of four. Some 16.9 million more Americans would have jobs.
By the way, the Gramm-Solon column also addresses the argument that this recovery is anemic because the downturn was caused by a financial crisis. That’s certainly a reasonable argument, but they point out that Reagan had to deal with the damage caused by high inflation, which certainly wreaked havoc with parts of the financial system. They also compare today’s weak recovery to the boom that followed the financial crisis of 1907.
But I want to make a different point. As I’ve written before, Obama is not responsible for the current downturn. Yes, he was a Senator and he was part of the bipartisan consensus for easy money, Fannie/Freddie subsidies, bailout-fueled moral hazard, and a playing field tilted in favor of debt, but his share of the blame wouldn’t even merit an asterisk.
My problem with Obama is that he hasn’t fixed any of the problems. Instead, he has kept in place all of the bad policies – and in some cases made them worse. Indeed, I challenge anyone to identify a meaningful difference between the economic policy of Obama and the economic policy of Bush.
- Bush increased government spending. Obama has been increasing government spending.
- Bush adopted Keynesian “stimulus” policies. Obama adopted Keynesian “stimulus” policies.
- Bush bailed out politically connected companies. Obama has been bailing out politically connected companies.
- Bush supported the Fed’s easy-money policy. Obama has been supporting the Fed’s easy-money policy.
- Bush created a new healthcare entitlement. Obama created a new healthcare entitlement.
- Bush imposed costly new regulations on the financial sector. Obama imposed costly new regulations on the financial sector.
I could continue, but you probably get the point. On economic issues, the only real difference is that Bush cut taxes and Obama is in favor of higher taxes. Though even that difference is somewhat overblown since Obama’s tax policies – up to this point – haven’t had a big impact on the overall tax burden (though that could change if his plans for higher tax rates ever go into effect).
This is why I always tell people not to pay attention to party labels. Bigger government doesn’t work, regardless of whether a politician is a Republican or Democrat. The problem isn’t Obamanomics, it’s Bushobamanomics. But since that’s a bit awkward, let’s just call it statism.
[…] already made this point using data from the Minneapolis Federal Reserve Bank, but today we’re going to look at some updated information from Tom Blumer, who put together a […]
[…] sound policies help to explain why the economy boomed after his policies were implemented, which is in stark contrast to the economy’s anemic performance during the Obama […]
[…] already made this point using data from the Minneapolis Federal Reserve Bank, but today we’re going to look at some updated information from Tom Blumer, who put together a […]
[…] already made this point using data from the Minneapolis Federal Reserve Bank, but today we’re going to look at some updated information from Tom Blumer, who put together a […]
[…] economy and the Reagan economy, I often used a database from the Minneapolis Federal Reserve that compared jobs and growth data during business […]
[…] I guess he wants us the applaud Obama’s so-called stimulus and be impressed by the very anemic recovery that followed. […]
[…] stock market. His policies also produced rising levels of median household income. Moreover, the economy boomed and millions of jobs were created. These were among the reasons he was reelected in a […]
[…] stock market. His policies also produced rising levels of median household income. Moreover, the economy boomed and millions of jobs were created. These were among the reasons he was reelected in a […]
[…] used this data to compare Reagan and Obama, so now let’s add the Clinton years to the mix. The following two charts from the Minneapolis Fed […]
[…] used this data to compare Reagan and Obama, so now let’s add the Clinton years to the mix. The following two charts from the Minneapolis […]
[…] I’ve made this same point, over and over and over […]
[…] already made this point using data from the Minneapolis Federal Reserve Bank, but today we’re going to look at some updated information from Tom Blumer, who put together a […]
Any comparison between the Reagan and Obama recoveries is deliberately unfair and meaningless if it doesn’t take into account the deficit and the national debt.
Imagine if you will, two couples living on adjoining properties in lovely white houses.
An older couple, Ron and Nan in the house on the right, and a younger couple, Brock and Mikki in the house on the left.
Both couples have had some bad economic times and are in the process of recovering. Ron and Nan are living extremely well while running up their credit cards and taking out a second mortgage on their home. Ron and Nan will let their children and grandchildren pay off the enormous debt after they’ve shuffled off this mortal coil.
The younger couple Brock and Mikki, concerned for their children’s future, are also coming out of their economic slump but doing it more modestly, with far less borrowing, so as not to burden their children and grandchildren. Their daughters envy the neighbors, not understanding why they can’t live in the same kind of luxury.
Of course, they are just children and don’t understand these things as well as you and I.
[…] Mitchell of the Cato Institute makes interesting comparisons of Presidents Obama, Reagan and Bush. The difference in impact of their respective economic policies are […]
[…] look at these powerful charts based on Minneapolis Federal Reserve data, which compare the strong results of Reaganomics with the pathetic results of […]
All one need do is remember that Reagan inherited an unemployment rate and inflation rate higher than the one Obama did and ended up with a roaring economy. Gas prices, inflation adjusted, were comparable too.
Reagan fought the dumocrats tooth and nail to get inflation under control the MINUTE he entered office. They screamed and cried like always but he did what had to be done. 1981 and early 1982 things were pretty ugly but look what the outcome of Reagans decision… The longest period of Economic growth in American history.
The Regressives like to talk about the 90′s and how well off we all were under Clintons reign. The truth was Billy boy was riding Reagans legacy of making tough choices. Clinton then signed the Community Reinvestment Act Part Duex which DESTROYED everything Reagan had done and set the stage for the 2008 Meltdown. Quit listening to Liberal LIARS and look to History
[…] But it is very fair to hold him responsible for what’s happened since the recession ended. I’ve cited data from the Minneapolis Federal Reserve on both employment and gross domestic product to show that Obama has presided over the weakest recovery in the post-World War II period. […]
[…] is too high and growth is anemic, but President Obama says the “private sector is doing […]
w pogłowiu owiec oraz bydła nieodmiennie
oskarżano wilki i jades złodziei. Sir Roger słuchał zdumiony.
– Nie uwierzycie, kobiety – palnął Arnold przyciszonym
głosem,
rozglądając się krytycznie na gdyż.
[…] current so-called recovery is the worst in 70 years. Per capita income and employment are lower than they were at the start of the recession. If this […]
I blog too and I am publishing a little something comparable to this excellent posting, “One Year
Later, Another Look at Obamanomics vs. Reaganomics
| International Liberty”. Do you care in cases where I
actuallywork with several of your personal ideas? Many thanks -Josie
[…] helps explain why job creation has been so dismal in recent years, with more than twenty million Americans out of work, underemployed, or dropped out of the […]
[…] helps explain why job creation has been so dismal in recent years, with more than twenty million Americans out of work, underemployed, or dropped out of the […]
These charts in the above article don’t mean much. The lines are not labeled. For all I know, the gray line could be Obama and the red line Reagan.
[…] But it is very fair to hold him responsible for what’s happened since the recession ended. I’ve cited data from the Minneapolis Federal Reserve on both employment and gross domestic product to show that Obama has presided over the weakest recovery in the post-World War II period. […]
[…] I’ve compared Obamanomics and Reaganomics, but this image may be even better because it shows all business cycles and confirms that the Obama […]
[…] I cite the Minneapolis Fed to show that Obama has the worst performance – whether looking at GDP growth or job creation – of any post-World War II […]
[…] I’ve narrated a video on why Keynesian economics is bad theory, I’ve also narrated a video specifically debunking Obama’s failed stimulus, and I’ve put together a post with data from the Minneapolis Fed showing how Reaganomics worked far better than Obamanomics. […]
[…] Certainly, Obama has not delivered on his 2008 election policies. A comparison of recessions and recoveries since 1945 shows that America’s climb out of recession has been much slower than Obama promised (See https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2012/02/02/one-year-later-another-look-at-obamanomics-vs-reagan…) […]
[…] If you want a straightforward measure of Obama’s economic performance, look at the comparative business cycle data from the Minneapolis Fed. […]
[…] If you want a straightforward measure of Obama’s economic performance, look at the comparative business cycle data from the Minneapolis Fed. […]
[…] done a few comparisons of economic performance under Reagan and Obama, sometimes using the interactive data from the Minneapolis Federal Reserve […]
[…] Obama’s policies have dampened growth in the United States (according to data from the Congressional Budget Office and the St. Louis Federal Reserve Bank, […]
[…] Obama’s policies have dampened growth in the United States (according to data from the Congressional Budget Office and the St. Louis Federal Reserve Bank, […]
[…] Obama’s policies have dampened growth in the United States (according to data from the Congressional Budget Office and the St. Louis Federal Reserve Bank, […]
[…] Dan writes: The politicians in Washington flushed about $800 billion down the toilet and we got nothing in exchange except for anemic growth and lots of people out of work. […]
[…] Can we finally all agree that Keynesian economics is a flop? The politicians in Washington flushed about $800 billion down the toilet and we got nothing in exchange except for anemic growth and lots of people out of work. […]
[…] One Year Later, Another Look at Obamanomics vs. Reaganomics […]
[…] The Minneapolis Federal Reserve Bank has a very useful interactive website that allows anybody to compare recessions and recoveries during the post-World War II era. It takes only a couple of clicks to complete the exercise, and does not reflect well on the current occupant of the White House—as you can see at this link. […]
[…] Beats me, but the Democrats are playing hardball, perhaps because they think a fight over class warfare is a good way of distracting voters from the weak economy. […]
[…] Beats me, but the Democrats are playing hardball, perhaps because they think a fight over class warfare is a good way of distracting voters from the weak economy. […]
I wish I could take your article seriously if you didn’t make such factually inaccurate statements 😐 Like, oh, that Obama has increased government spending and jobs. The facts say otherwise.
[…] The Minneapolis Federal Reserve Bank has a very useful interactive website that allows anybody to compare recessions and recoveries during the post-World War II era. It takes only a couple of clicks to complete the exercise, and does not reflect well on the current occupant of the White House—as you can see at this link. […]
Reblogged this on The Busy Post.
[…] Click on this link if you want to compare Obamanomics and Reaganomics. The difference is […]
[…] Click on this link if you want to compare Obamanomics and Reaganomics. The difference is […]
[…] Click on this link if you want to compare Obamanomics and Reaganomics. The difference is […]
[…] The Minneapolis Federal Reserve Bank has a very useful interactive website that allows anybody to compare recessions and recoveries during the post-World War II era. It takes only a couple of clicks to complete the exercise, and does not reflect well on the current occupant of the White House—as you can see at this link. […]
[…] Click on this link if you want to compare Obamanomics and Reaganomics. The difference is […]
[…] Click on this link if you want to compare Obamanomics and Reaganomics. The difference is […]
[…] a recent post comparing Reaganomics and Obamanomics, I explained why I think Barack Obama’s policies have been hurting the […]
[…] The Minneapolis Federal Reserve Bank has a very useful interactive website that allows anybody to compare recessions and recoveries during the post-World War II era. It takes only a couple of clicks to complete the exercise, and does not reflect well on the current occupant of the White House—as you can see at this link. […]
[…] One Year Later, Another Look at Obamanomics vs. Reaganomics […]
[…] is too high and growth is anemic, but President Obama says the “private sector is doing […]
[…] Hotair pointed out, Dan Mitchell of Cato wrote a piece in February depicting the similarity of policies that caused the recession and continues to drag the economy […]
[…] Dan Mitchell of Cato wrote a piece in February stating the obvious: The same bad policies Bush was responsible for that both contributed to the recession and […]
[…] Dan Mitchell of Cato wrote a piece in February stating the obvious: The same bad policies Bush was responsible for that both contributed to the recession and […]
[…] Dan Mitchell of Cato wrote a piece in February stating the obvious: The same bad policies Bush was responsible for that both contributed to the recession and […]
[…] Dan Mitchell of Cato wrote a piece in February stating the obvious: The same bad policies Bush was responsible for that both contributed to the recession and […]
[…] I’ve done a couple of posts comparing Reaganomics and Obamanomics, mostly based on data from the Minneapolis Federal Reserve on employment and economic output. […]
[…] I looked at those numbers a couple of months ago, so I could compare Reaganomics and Obamanomics, and the difference is startling. The Reagan policies of lower tax rates, spending restraint, deregulation, and tight money generated much better results than the statist policies of Obama. […]
[…] I looked at those numbers a couple of months ago, so I could compare Reaganomics and Obamanomics, and the difference is startling. The Reagan policies of lower tax rates, spending restraint, deregulation, and tight money generated much better results than the statist policies of Obama. […]
[…] how can these numbers make sense when the President saddled the nation with the faux stimulus and […]
[…] how can these numbers make sense when the President saddled the nation with the faux stimulus and […]
[…] how can these numbers make sense when the President saddled the nation with the faux stimulus and […]
[…] how can these numbers make sense when the President saddled the nation with the faux stimulus and […]
[…] I’ve done a couple of posts comparing Reaganomics and Obamanomics, mostly based on data from the Minneapolis Federal Reserve on employment and economic output. […]
[…] I’ve done a couple of posts comparing Reaganomics and Obamanomics, mostly based on data from the Minneapolis Federal Reserve on employment and economic output. […]
[…] The Minneapolis Federal Reserve Bank has a very useful interactive website that allows anybody to compare recessions and recoveries during the post-World War II era. It takes only a couple of clicks to complete the exercise, and does not reflect well on the current occupant of the White House—as you can see at this link. […]
[…] a recent post comparing Reaganomics and Obamanomics, I explained why I think Barack Obama’s policies have been hurting the […]
[…] a recent post comparing Reaganomics and Obamanomics, I explained why I think Barack Obama’s policies have been hurting the […]
[…] a recent post comparing Reaganomics and Obamanomics, I explained why I think Barack Obama’s policies have been hurting the […]
[…] One Year Later, Another Look at Obamanomics vs. Reaganomics […]
[…] previous posts, I’ve used data from the Minneapolis Federal Reserve Bank to show how Obamanomics is leading to very weak results, particularly compared to the economic boom triggered by […]
STOP IT DAN
RR INCREASED SPEND 22% IN REAL DOLLARS|?????
TRY IT IN 2050
COMPARED TO PREDECESSOR NOT 20 YEARS OUT
HE TOOK 600 TO 1080 IS 80%. HONEST NUMBERS
GOOD TRY BUT WRONG
[…] are two graphs, which I posted earlier this month, that make my point. The red lines show the economy is finally – and slowly – moving in […]
[…] These results aren’t good news for Europe, but they also are a warning sign for the United States. The burden of government spending has jumped by about 8-percentage points of GDP since Bill Clinton left office, so this could be the explanation for why growth in America is so sluggish. […]
clearly they should fire whoever was responsible for having obama offerring to produce a “net spending cut”(3rd debate of 2008), or for making obama believe that he would “cut the deficit in half, by the end of his first term”.
poor obama…greatest president in the world, in theory, with the worst advisers.
“It tells me that his people didn’t understand the severity of the problem.”
then clearly, in their failure to understand, the process was mismanged. amazing that you make an attempt to exclude obama from judgment, tossing it to his underlings. the buck stops with his advisers?
maybe the belief that he wasn’t qualified to make his first adminstrative job the potus, was well founded.
or maybe, he just isn’t lucky.
sad, that you mitigate obama’s failures at the expense of everyone else. were he successful, you seem to be the type who would be more than effusive in his praise.
one more allegory:
does the us have muscles aches, or systemic cancer?
the past 3 years, this nation has been attended by a doctor who administers painkillers, hiding/ignoring cancerous growths.
they are spreading…
deficit spending, entitlements, rising healthcare costs, decades of anemic savings rates, etc. the house of cards is cascading-see the ‘eu’ and their troubles. it seems we aren’t the only ones deluding ourselves.
this admin has dodged every single problem.
it invested it’s time, on a healthcare program which requires 10 years of funding to provide six years of service, to occur FIVE YEARS after the depths of recession. no plan for how you fund the next 6 years of obamacare.
there were simple areas, where targetted policy could have liberated various parts of our gdp.
the energy sector is 7.5% of our gdp. had someone targetted it, they could have doubled it’s production, increase gdp, independent of all else, by more than 2% over a three year span. instead, we have been ‘saved’ from it.
the reason i love this sector so much, is that for every dollar oil companies make in profit, the govt gets a dollar.
that’s the overriding theme of this admin…
invest in the non-productive(with minimal effects on gdp and tax revenue), and limit the capabilities of the producers.
that the msm let’s the wh float the idea that any serious deficit reduction will occur with a return to the clinton tax rates, for just the rich, despite the fact that the tax system was designed to fund a govt that cost less than 19% of gdp, while we are at 25%, is ludicrous.
so long as we continue to embrace this fantasy, the more we wander, and the further we get away from civilzation.
allegory alert:
a boat capsizes, tossing the people into the water.
choice a: reach over, and pull the person, who can get their hand out of the water back into the boat.
choice b: jump off the boat, stand on the bottom, and hold the person up out of water and walk them to shore, while the resucer is under-water.
you cannot manage a recovery by helping those at the bottom. it’s cold, but reality provides that you can help those who are otherwise capable of helping themselves, as quickly as you can.
once those people get back in the boat, they can help pull people out of the water.
don’t even get me started on the once common use of ‘multiplier’, as it has fallen out of fashion for how poorly any predictions based upon the belief that one even exists.
i’ll concede, that in some markets, we may be far closer to bottom…
go to west coast fo florida. listen for eastern european accents. they are scooping the houses up…
so in pockets, housing bottoms, but only because people who have money, who aren’t americans, are going to come in a provide a larger market.
good for florida, not so good for elsewhere.
“2012 should be noticeably better than the last few years…”
you tip your hand on your own beliefs.
i noticed that you didn’t say, “will be better…”
i can pretty much guarantee that you are incorrect. no charts available, but pretty certain there exists a rather strong corellation between gdp growth and housing sales.
have you seen the gdp forecasts? they aren’t exactly ‘noticeably better than the last few years…’
as for housing, I’ll offer my own strategy.
baby boomers are going to begin dropping like flies, or at least looking for single story homes as their mobility starts to limit them to refraining from stairs.
bernanke is going to keep interest rates at an artificial low for the next three years-remember that softening of the margins.
my target period for buying ‘my’ next home is three years, but definitely not next year.
an increase in mortgage rates would spur the people in a similar position to shorten their window for buying, and lead to faster home sales, sooner.
in reality we are roughly 20% over-valued, still, at least for my target price home. houses below 200k are probably 10% away from bottom.
this all sets up nicely for me…
i’ll get a 15 year mortgage for a rather low 3% rate, buying a house at less than 80% of it’s ‘current’ value, and then I wind up with a period of massive inflation, where the homes simultaneously appreciates and inflates.
that is the final blow of this recession and how it was managed. inflation doesn’t occur, until you have actual sutainable growth. we are 2.5 years out of recession, and there is no growth.
this past 3 years isn’t news to me, as i read the letter from several economists, taken out in the nyt, which explains that the course of action the admin was choosing wouldn’t work.
they were right.
The reason housing hasn’t recovered yet is because we built way too many during the bubble. I agree that Obama’s first-time homebuyer tax credit was stupid. It tells me that his people didn’t understand the severity of the problem. People that truly understand the housing market knew it wouldn’t accomplish anything.
But on a happy note, someone that does understand the US housing market, as well as anybody, thinks the bottom is in. 2012 should be noticeably better than the last few years…
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2012/02/housing-bottom-is-here.html
let’s step outside you statistics…
i live and remember the recessions of the early 80’s.
everyone who live through it, remembers the gas lines, where everyone talked, about how bad things were.
this recession, with it’s ‘feathery’ bottom, kept us from the ‘horrors’. in the soft bottom, we never found where we were going to plant our feet.
100% long term sacrifice, for a short term good.
that short term has ended. were still looking for bottom, and we are in the ‘long term’..
this admin avoided every long term, hard choice for instant gratification. now they are paying, as is the country.
the part where you lose me, mj…
you keep going to the data on previous recessions, to demonstrate how extreme this one was. i’ll stipulate to it, so that we may proceed:
when you provide historical relativity, you realize that in looking at your links, i see not just the bottom, but the rate of recovery, AFTER.
i have also pointed to the fact that even the admin, itself, believed the part of the graphs that you provide, which demonstrate marked improvement, after recession.
worst ‘recession’ in history. ok.
worst recovery in history. look at your graphs. look at what was forecast.
judge the results.
“You give too much credit/blame to presidents….”
i give credit to recovery after recession, to every previous president, deserving or not.
in a broad sense, i’ll explain the failures of obama:
he softened every margin, weakening a defining ‘bottom’ for the sake of long erm pain, for a rather quick fix at the moment.
take unemployment:
in providing generous, relative to every other recession, extensions, he has created a weaker margin of those capable of tkaing jobs, yet unwilling to take one for less than they were making.
housing…rather than let a true bottom occur, last year, 2 years after recession, saw the weakest home sales in recorded history.
we are still looking for bottom in the housing market, largely to the the delay in pain that was offerred.
the result, 2.5 years after the recession ended, we are still looking for a tnagible bottom to turn off of.
imho, unemployment should be at worst, 7.5%, but well below 7% in every other recovery. believing that their isn’t a 1% or greater (nominal) group of people on unemployment , which would increase both workforce and production, were they ‘forced’ into the labor market is the stuff of fantasy.
in short obama is popping out policy, or was, popping out policy, til jan 2011, that was treating the country as if it were ‘still’ in the throes of a recession, 2.5 years after the recession ended, when it needed harder margins, defined, to spur willingness to work and invest.
Here is the missing graph.
You give too much credit/blame to presidents for the state of the economy.
With the exception of the dot-com recession, housing has led the way to recovery. The main reason for this slow recovery is that fact we still have too many homes. This graph makes my point very powerfully.
Source of image:
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2012/01/q4-gdp-residential-investment-now.html
the recovery has been worse than the 1981 recovery. this recovery has been worse than any other previous recovery.
it is rather suggestive of the fact that the recovery itself has been poorly managed.
this is akin to suggesting that previous patients, who recovered from pneumonia with pennicillan did not face the same strain of pnuemonia as the patient who failed to recovery with placebos.
curious that none of the graphs discuss inflation, ala misery index.
the inflation of the early 1980’s was an issue that further confounded recovery, and yet it still occurred.
obama did not have to manage our recovery with inflation as a consideration.
worth noting that the misery index was twice as high for reagan, as for obama.
reagan cut his in half, in less than five years.
obama has actually increased his…
This recession is worse than the 1981 recession, doc. See for yourself:
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2011/08/recession-measures.html
All one need do is remember that Reagan inherited an unemployment rate higher than the one Obama did and ended up with a roaring economy.
[…] As with most comparisons of the SCoaMF to the Gipper, the SCoaMF doesn’t come off too well. One Year Later, Another Look at Obamanomics vs. Reaganomics […]
how oblivious is the obama admin to spending relative to gdp?
aside from failing to produce the “net spending cut” and “cut the deficit in half by the end of his first term”, they have actually manfuactured a budget projection that feature a 1 trillion dollar deficit when he departs from his ‘second’ term.
it is a deficit that is greater than 5% of their own projected gdp.
one small point when considering how much govt has grown under the obama admin…
when he came into office, a 400 billion omnibus was passed, which hit the books on 2009.
this makes it look like the 3.5 trillion dollar govt spending was on bush’s last budget, when in fact it was money that was spent by the new admin.
the baseline to compare obama/dem spending is actually 3.1 trillion, and since we are at 3.8 trillion, the increase is 22.5% at minimum.
the dems have been floating that obama increased it from 3.5 trillion, when in fact he was the one responsible for the .4 trillion dollar increase from the word ‘go’. they have been playing fast and loose with the numbers, and the media just plays along.
let’s cut to the chase…
do you believe that govt can arrange a system of taxation where we can consistently provide more than 20% of gdp to the govt?
you were previously fond of offerring history of past recessions as an indicator that faster growth will occur.
i offer you the various sytems of taxation in our history, since the inception of income tax, and note that anything greater than 20% is an outlier.
clinton’s surplus budget was based on 18.5%.
his last budget year featured govt spending at 17.3% of gdp.
i do note that simpson/bowles was going for 21%, and chuckle to myself.
i am not a balanced budget nazi, as i accept that increase in debt at a lower rate than growth is a winning scenario.
“You are incorrect. If spending stays constant and GDP falls, spending as a percent of GDP rises.”
please note my first sentence:
“it decreases as well, if it is directly tied to gdp.”
i said nothing about spending staying constant. I implied the exact opposite.
***************************
“And growth is faster after a recession…”
the recession, per larry summers, ended 2.5 years ago. the forecast for growth in 2012 AND 2013 is abysmmal. My belief is that growth can be stimulated through economic policies, yet if those economic policies aren’t pursued…
the assumption that growth will occur independent of actual policy suggests that all previous actions of democrats and republicans are irrelevant.
my personal preference would be a dramatic reduction in corporate tax rates.
off the top of my head, we make about 200 billion in revenue off of corporate tax. Lure 10 million people in who will wind up paying 20k in income tax would offset it. construction of corporate offices would stimulate construction. support staff for the 10 million high earners lured in would provide at minimum, 20 million jobs. at present, and due to the construction boom, we have more existing offices than people to fill them.
************************
your first link…
there’s a strawman in the second graph, but the conclusion is consistent with what I argue:
“In order to get back in balance, spending will either need to be cut drastically, or increases must be kept below GDP growth for several years.”
the author targets spending to gdp. he believes that the shortfall can be made up via taxation, yet hauser’s law offers a far different outcome than the one the author believes.
second link…
coming decline?
please. money is simply a score, and scores are fungible. the essential quality of a country is the ability to produce a surplus of goods that can be exported.
we can feed ourselves. china cannot. we have enough resources to fuel this country for several generations. china does not.
i pick china because they seem to be winning on the ‘cash’ front, relative to everyone else. it remains a zeitgeist, and things can change.
in the grand scheme, it doesn’t matter if our gdp was 1/10th our debt. no one goes hungry or freezes during winter. we have the option of not importing from anywhere…
very few countries have this option available. not my preference, but it remains as a permanent backstop.
And growth is faster after a recession. But the worse the recession, the longer it takes. If you look at real economic growth over the last 200 years, it has followed a remarkable 1.8% trend line. Even after the major disruptions of the great depression and WWII, the economy went right back to this trend. Nothing the government has done in the past has changed this fact.
http://www.acus.org/new_atlanticist/americas-coming-decline
You’re second response is somewhat convoluted. I think the following link explains the situation pretty well.
http://northamericaneconomics.com/2011/12/02/some-thoughts-on-the-us-federal-deficit/
You are incorrect. If spending stays constant and GDP falls, spending as a percent of GDP rises.
Yes, this recession did have to be worse than the 1981 recession. Housing is the number 1 driver of the economy. In fact, almost every recession ends when residential construction picks up. We are still waiting for that to happen because of the massive overbuild during the bubble. The graph on the following link demonstrates these points.
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2012/01/comparing-new-home-sales-and-housing.html
The WH projections for growth were way off – I don’t think they understood the magnitude of the problem.
alluded to the obama admin’s belief that growth happens after a recession, without anyone doing anything…
the bullet points on the recession from 2009:
Click to access Economic_Projections_and_the_Budget_Outlook.pdf
“Another key fact is that deeper recessions are typically followed by more rapid growth.”
the only financial situation that featured this much spending and stimulus was the great depression. it would seem that they have used it as the template to argue for the spending, but when looking at the recovery assumed other recessions would be the proper model.
i’d be curious if any recession featured a stimulus anywhere near what has been done.
i sincerely doubt so…
one more late night rumination…
hauser’s law is (really just a correlation) pretty precise.
govt largest take, ever, just broke 20% of gdp, regardless of tax rates.
here we are at 25% of gdp…
imho, the krugman article which called upon govt spending to be 25% of gdp is the embryo of the govt the obama admin designed. It was the equivalent of a laffer curve drawn on a napkin, only it was wrong.
krugman never told them how to squeeze the additional 5% out of gdp, assuming that govt was raking in 20%, based on ONE year, versus 80 others that provide an average of about 18%.
so long as we are spending 25% of gdp, we will run a deficit of 6-9%.
cheney once said deficits don’t matter:
it is only true if the deficit is less than the rate of gdp growth.
the simple debt/gdp ratio is the yardstick.
here’s the crazy thing about obama:
he broke out of the label of ‘tax and spend liberal’. he doesn’t pay for anything. his proposal of returning to the clinton tax rates doesn’t include the detail that the average rate of govt funds ran at about 19%.
he has proposed no mechanism that pays for his 25% plan.
it is a design for deficits as far as the eye can see.
it decreases as well, if it is directly tied to gdp.
very few things are…
perhaps you have a specific case of why things shouldn’t be tied to gdp-would love to hear the scenario.
my question to you:
“This recession is much worse than the 1981 recession.”
did it have to be?
reagan directly targeted gdp growth, all else subordinate.
looking at the wh projections from 2009, they were gearing up for three consecutive years of 4%+ growth…they anticipated that the recession would follow previous recessions, and simply assumed growth.
they didn’t till the soil, they didn’t plant the beans…
now they wonder why nothing is growing.
they even anticipated growth repeatedly…
recovery summer? biden 2010.
dw schultz asserting that obama owns the economy? 2011.
they really dind’t plan for this, and most of the architects of this failure to deal with stagnant growth are gone. the only ones left are a tax cheat and a guy who gets to check boxes, when his coloring books aren’t available.
Question for aardvarkomega: What happens to anything as a % of GDP when GDP falls significantly?
One thing is clear from those graphs. This recession is much worse than the 1981 recession. Here are some good comparison graphs:
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2011/08/recession-measures.html
a matching game for clarence swinney…
a. 18.4%
b. 25.36%
c. 8.6%
which of the above is:
the projected rate of spending as a percent of gdp made in the clinton surplus budgets for 2008?
which is the current rate of spending as a % of gdp?
which is our current deficit as a percent of gdp?
if obama was committed to the clinton budgets, our deficit should be 1.65% of gdp, or 249 billion.
please don’t pretend that clinton and obama feature the same pragmatism.
fine if you want to compare bush to clinton, but when you compare clinton to obama, the results are rather damning.
Obamanomics can be summed up in one sentence:
“The Hope that people will Change and thus competent people will somehow be either convinced, tricked, or coerced to work for distant others rather than themselves and their families.”
The answer is always the same:
It won’t work.
But Hope springs eternal and Americans (in their world renowned ignorance about history and the rest of the world) seem to have picked that old proven path to decline, as a new, fresh, American shortcut to prosperity — promoted by a president who finally broke racial divides.
And true, race does not matter. If you act like Jimmy Carter, the result will be the same, regardless of your color. Alas, we are at the cusp of a major shift in world prosperity, and thus, things are much more dire this time around.
In the seventies America still possessed a significant margin of advantage compared to the rest of the world – Carter’s policies squandered some, but not enough to bring America to parity with the rest of the world. The initial infusion of freedom from the late eighteenth century, still gave America enough reserves to turn around, and the three billion people emerging world juggernaut was still sleeping.
Not so now – and that is the pivotal difference sealing America’s decline. As the rest of the world liberalized the American margin of advantage is finally all but exhausted and the three billion people emerging world juggernaut have started imitating what once set America apart from the rest of the world: Capitalism. For each American that tentatively dabbles with collectivism as a delusional way to salvation, there are TEN emerging world people embracing capitalism. The end result seems all but pre-ordained at this point. The desperation inevitably associated with economic decline will trigger new waves of HopNChange.
Further flattening the effort-reward curves by declaring war on those fewer Americans who can still produce ten, one hundred times more than the average world citizen, while attempting to insulate the middle and lower classes from the consequences of mediocrity,… is absolutely the path in the wrong direction. The fact that this option is even considered by the American electorate, is signal that America is already in the grips of the vicious cycle of decline. It will be the one last act of suicidal desperation that Americans take.
Remember, the farmer who stays behind the plow twelve
hours instead of eight, simply increases his production by half. It is the
fellow who invents the bulldozer — and recruits other competent people to make it accessible at prices that are
within reach of the farmer — that makes the order of magnitude difference. That is the person who
holds the key to production – and thus prosperity – ten or hundred fold that of
our heroic farmer. Turning around to the
bulldozer inventor and telling him he has not paid his fair share to humanity
is suicidal.
America has already steered towards a lower perpetually compounding growth trendline.
The problem is that by the time the more visible effects of decline start showing up and being rationalized by the electorate: i.e.
(1) American companies equally weighed down by regulation (the world norm) and employees operating under a flatter effort-reward curve (again the world norm) start being outcompeted by foreign companies, with foreign workers, foreign management, created by foreign capital and operating under foreign law
(2) The best and brightest of the world stop coming to America just like they stopped going to Europe and start staffing the emerging overseas competitors,
…yes, by that time…. the pendulum has already started swinging in the opposite direction and it is too late to react.
By that time, it means that you have not only lost all your existing momentum but have actually gained significant momentum in the opposite direction. In these circumstances electorates almost universally respond by hope to survive through as few changes as possible (a compassionate republican in 2016?). it does not work, and decline continues, save the few spasmodic attempts – the death throes of a once prospering empire in decline.
“Bush left Obama, in 2008, an 8500B Bail out commitment ”
————-
Obama supported those bailouts, supported TARP, implemented TARP, and asked for TARP 2.
“Bush Left Obama a 3500 Budget”
—————
This is an out & out lie. $2.93 trillion dollars is the number that is correct.
————
“Bush left Obama a 1400B Deficit as far as the eye can see”
————-
Another lie. In January 2009, just before President Obama took office, the budget office projected a $1.2 trillion deficit for 2009
Note: Bush ran up an average of $410 billion in deficit spending per year
You are just making things up.
“Clinton left Bush a 240B Surplus as far as the eye can see”
—————
Which is absurd hyperbole.
“As far as the eye can see” is not, and was not, worth the paper it was printed on. Additionally, there was no 240 billion dollar surplus.
But while we’re busy assigning blame, you realize the deficit was $260 billion and the unemployement rate was 4.6% when Harry & Nancy took over Congress, right?
“AMAZES ME TO SEE SUCH STUPIDITY
REAGAN 1981-1982 RECESSION WSA A RESULT OF ACTIONS EASY TO CORRECT.”
And yet you still hit the enter key after you typed it. Easy correct? Which is why the 70’s over three different presidents sucked? Cause it was a easy fix? And what’s with the all caps? Always a sign of crazy, mixed with stupidity on the internet.
one other point, for clarence swinney…
file under ‘things clinton left for the country’:
clinton’s surplus budget(1998) was kind enough to predict 10 years out.
2007 projected govt spending:
2.303 trillion. actual:2.72 trillion.
2007 projected revenues:
2.446 trillion. actual:2.57 trillion.
if you long for the days of clinton, and those promised surpluses, take a guess where things have gone horribly wrong.
small addition to above…
clinton:
93-01, adjusting for inflation increased real gdp by 33%.
(please note reagan increased it by 32%)
clinton did NOT have the headwinds that reagan had.
have to ask the dems…
if mccain/palin had produced this level of ‘progress’, would you really be telling us how wonderful a job they were doing?
i thank clarence swinney for pointing out the inflation reagan had to deal with…
adjusting for inflation, reagan increased govt spending by 22% over his two terms.
he increased real gdp, 81-89, by 32%.
obama, thus far, has increased real gdp by less than 5%, while increasing spending from 3.1 trillion in 2009(the 3.5 trillion baseline dems use is a result of the omnibus spending act, passed by barry and dems, and on them).
he has increased govt spending 19% in his first three budgets.
two take aways…
the country is on pace to grow at less than a third the rate under obama, as it did under reagan.
govt spending is on pace to increase twice as fast under obama, as it did under reagan.
wtf, indeed.
[…] with most comparisons of the SCoaMF to the Gipper, the SCoaMF doesn’t come off too well.One Year Later, Another Look at Obamanomics vs. ReaganomicsBy Dan MitchellOn this day last year, I posted two charts that I developed using the Minneapolis […]
Left out of the coments was the role of Congress the purse strings of the Republic in the fiscal policies of the Clinton, Bush, Obama era. Were they no factor in the tax-spend-debt and deficit equation? I should think so.
Reagan fought the dumocrats tooth and nail to get inflation under control the MINUTE he entered office. They screamed and cried like always but he did what had to be done. 1981 and early 1982 things were pretty ugly but look what the outcome of Reagans decision… The longest period of Economic growth in American history.
The Regressives like to talk about the 90’s and how well off we all were under Clintons reign. The truth was Billy boy was riding Reagans legacy of making tough choices. Clinton then signed the Community Reinvestment Act Part Duex which DESTROYED everything Reagan had done and set the stage for the 2008 Meltdown. Quit listening to Liberal LIARS and look to History…
clarenceswinney,
Just for the sake of argument, let’s grant all that stuff. Bush was lousy.
Obama has DOUBLED DOWN on all the lousy. If you didn’t like Bush, you should HATE Obama. If Bush was so bad, OBAMA IS EVEN WORSE. For all the same reasons.
That was the point of this article. Take everything you dislike about Bush, and look at what Obama has done: that same bad stuff, only more and faster.
How is that hard to understand? Comparing Obama to Bush makes Bush look less bad in comparison, and Obama look even that much worse.
You should call it what it IS…..”Revengeonomics vs Freedom”
Clarence, why is it whenever Øbummer’s blatant failures are shown the light of day, Ø-bots drag out the evil straw man bush? Øbama took a bad situation and made it five times worse, what part of “abject failure” do you find so hard to wrap your mind around?
If you prefer to forget the labels, so be it. These numbers still show results… from less overnment under reagen and from more government under Obama.
[…] COMPARISON: One Year Later, Another Look At Obamanomics vs. Reaganomics. […]
“LOOSENED” MONEY SUPPLY AND INTEREST RATES
OLE MAN GOOF FIRST IN TWO HOURS.
A TOTALLY RIDICULOUS EXERCISE IN FUTILITY
AMAZES ME TO SEE SUCH STUPIDITY
REAGAN 1981-1982 RECESSION WSA A RESULT OF ACTIONS EASY TO CORRECT. PAUL VOLCKER INCREASED INTEREST RATES AND SQUEEZED JUICE OUT OF MONEY SUPPLY
HE GOT INFLATION DOWN THEN LOSING INTEREST RATES AND MONEY SUPPLY
IT IS LIKE SAYING REAGAN WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR LOSS OF 5 MILLION JOBS IN THAT RECESSION AND OBAMA 1.4M IN BUSH GREAT RECESSION
OBAMA INHERITED A HELL ON EARTH–LIKE THESE NUMBERS
Clinton to Bush to Obama
Who Dug the Deep Hole? Who Fumbled the ball?
Numbers rounded
Clinton left Bush an 1800B Budget
Bush Left Obama a 3500 Budget
Clinton left Bush a 240B Surplus as far as the eye can see
Bush left Obama a 1400B Deficit as far as the eye can see
Clinton left Bush 5,700B of Debt
Bush left Obama 11,800B of Debt
Clinton left Bush a 237,000 net new jobs created per month
Bush left Obama a 31,000 lowest number since Hoover.
Clinton left Bush 17 Million Manufacturing Jobs
Bush left Obama 11 Million Manufacturing Jobs
Clinton left Bush a 10,800 Dow
Bush left Obama an 8028 Dow
Clinton left Bush Peace on Earth Good Will From Most Men
Bush left Obama Hell on Earth Two disastrous wars. Enmity of 1500 Million Muslims
Clinton left Bush a President most highly rated of any peacetime President in Asia, Africa, Europe.
Bush left Obama the most hated President in history
Bush left Obama an Housing Tsunami and Financial Volcano
Bush left Obama, in 2008, an 8500B Bail out commitment Yes! 8500 not just 700
Bush left Obama his Takeover of Fannie/Freddie, AIG, and first bailout of Chrysler
Bush increased maximum loan by Fannie/Freddie from $300,000 to $729,000
Bush increased FDIC maximum deposit coverage from $100,000 to $250,000
clarence swinney–political historian–lifeaholics of america burlington nc
author-Lifeaholic–Life story of Workaholic failure to Lifeaholic success