Time for another episode of “You Be the Judge.” I periodically come across stories that present very difficult (at least for me) moral quandaries, so I figure why not see how other people react.
I’ve cited some tough cases in previous posts, dealing with thorny topics such as brutal tax collection tactics, child molestation, Sharia law, healthcare, incest, jury nullification, and vigilante justice.
And speaking of vigilante justice, that’s the topic of today’s post. A woman in Spain was not very happy when the man who raped her daughter decided to gloat about the crime, so she decided to do something about it. Here’s an excerpt from a story in the UK-based Telegraph.
A Spanish mother has taken revenge on the man who raped her 13-year-old daughter at knifepoint by dousing him in petrol and setting him alight. He died of his injuries in hospital on Friday. Antonio Cosme Velasco Soriano, 69, had been sent to jail for nine years in 1998, but was let out on a three-day pass and returned to his home town of Benejúzar, 30 miles south of Alicante, on the Costa Blanca. While there, he passed his victim’s mother in the street and allegedly taunted her about the attack. He is said to have called out “How’s your daughter?”, before heading into a crowded bar. Shortly after, the woman walked into the bar, poured a bottle of petrol over Soriano and lit a match. She watched as the flames engulfed him, before walking out. The woman fled to Alicante, where she was arrested the same evening. When she appeared in court the next day in the town of Orihuela, she was cheered and clapped by a crowd, who shouted “Bravo!” and “Well done!”
The story is from 2005, and I confess that I have no idea how the case was resolved. But let’s imagine that something like this happened in the United States and you were on the jury. How would you vote? Would you practice jury nullification? Or what if you were the prosecutor, and had some discretion in what crime to prosecute. What charge would you file?
I know this is an impulsive answer and probably not the right approach, but I would be have been part of the crowd at the court cheering the woman.
Perfect, that’s the way to do it since the judicial system is so week. Why do Singapore and Saudi have such a low rate of crime. They set an example in public to the highest degree of torture.
More details are needed about the rape and circumstances.
But if I was a prosecutor, I would not seek a murder conviction.
Tough call. Setting someone alight is extreme. I believe the judicial system is flawed and would most likely have let down the raped girl. But some vigilante-ism on the mother’s part that the rapist feels for the rest of his pathetic life is fine by me.
dr brian neil talarico north bay suffers from a traumatic brain injury, and seizure disorder especially after he received a massive beating from someone who thought he was making a voice for vulnerable children…. …. dr talarico sexualized many young children… dr talarico covers up his crimes by making malicious false statements and lies under oath… dr talarico is not to be trusted around children. dr talarico especially has an obsession, or sexual preference for younger boys.
(Years later…) One thing never considered in such crimes I suspect, is that the mother is also a victim of the violent rapist of her young daughter. There is a huge trauma associated for the immediate family, and anybody who’s had children should know the intense protectiveness and emotional drama over their well-being even in small ways. So in a way the mother wasn’t just avenging her daughter’s experience, and the mocking from the unrepentant criminal — she was also avenging her own experience.
Guilty. Must serve the rest of the rapist term in jail.
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Your comment about those who commit forcible rape is probably correct, but so is the one above regarding false accusations (which are sometimes successful). So I advise a filter: serious incarceration for the first offense, but any second offense or separate aggravation to the first (jury tampering, taunting, etc.) results in a death penalty. There are enough false convictions that such a safety measure is warranted, in my opinion.
I’d vote for nullification in the woman’s case.
Any case of violent rape (I know, that sounds redundant, but I think there’s a difference between unwilling or seduced sex, and sex under threat of injury or death.) should result in the execution of the rapist. That sort of behavior has been found to not be amenable to rehabilitation, and locking them up merely punishes the rest of society with dumping the cost of care on them. Convicted violent rapists are 100% burdens on society.
[…] it excessive vigilante justice to set your daughter’s rapist on […]
Clearly, this woman is guilty of “risking a catastrophe”. Lighting a fire in a crowded bar could have caused a conflagration which would have killed innocent people. Had she done it /outside/, it would be a different story.
An eye for an eye …
“Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord’.”
–Romans 12:19
An eye for an eye … It may seem an outdated phrase – and barbaric to some – but its beauty lies in its simplicity … Thanks to the ever-expanding litigation world in which we live, criminals seem to acquire instant sympathy if their punishment is considered severe – while their crimes and victims are forsaken. Since people (experts) conveniently forget that rape is actually a crime of violence, the guy in this story received what he gave … eye for an eye … Karma should occur however it is meant to do so and not be interfered with by the machinations of those who perpetrate our litigation world.
I’d go with Zorba’s take. My heart still wants to go with she got justice but it is an untenable position. As others mentioned, she showed herself to be around his level.
People are always talking about the horrors of vigilante justice, how an innocent person could be hurt or killed because of bigotry or a rush to judgement. That’s certainly true. But does anyone assert with a straight face that our present, highly-bureaucratized system is a model of perfection? A person whose guilt is beyond question gets off because a policeman filled out the search warrant form incorrectly or because his lawyer successfully pleaded that he had a deprived childhoods. Another is convicted because the police fabricate evidence because they just KNOW this person is guilty. I think it would be interesting to conduct a scientific study to see which, vigilante justice or bureaucratic justice, actually results in more justice.
All good about being a civilized law abiding person, but I would sheer this women and ask that she be given a medal.
I have a sister and a bunch of female cousins, I have no sympathy or mercy for rapists, he should have been castrated first before being set alight.
I don’t have any judicial or moral justification for my position, it is just my gut reaction.
I hope the cost of the gas was levied on his estate.
If I understand jury nullification, it means refusing to enforce a bad law. Laws against murder are not bad laws.
On the other hand, I would be sceptical of any theories that this was a murder, as the victim of murder must be human.
John, you have replied but ducked, you have not answered the question!
To everyone who thinks it’s right to judge this taunted and traumatized Spanish mother, you first need to understand, to appreciate her context. That’s why the law has varying sentences for the same crime – because the context varies.
So I ask you, and everyone like Ricardo and John, the same question. Would you feel traumatized and then taunted? How you would have felt and what you would have done if it had been your own 13-year-old daughter who had been raped at knifepoint?
Please do include your answers in your reply!
If a cop had done it to criminal would everyone still think it was okay?
Ricardo, I wonder how you would have felt and what you would have done if it had been your own 13-year-old daughter?
Please do reply and let us all know…
[…] last thing. If there are libertarians who fit into category 11, I hope there are more people like this Spanish mother. Rate this: Share this:PrintEmailFacebookTwitterMoredeliciousDiggFarkLinkedInRedditStumbleUponLike […]
The age of consent in Spain is 13. Just so you guys don’t confuse this with child molestation.
Congratulations, Spanish Mother. You just lowered yourself to the animalistic level of the rapist. Now you are no better than him, and in fact, worse, as a murderer.
As much as I would want to kill this guy, it would be wrong to do so. Perhaps removing a part of his body would be in order.
She’s “Free pending pardon”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/8361620/Spanish-woman-who-killed-daughters-rapist-goes-free-pending-official-pardon.html
As the Godfather said: “No, it’s too much”. Rape is horrible, bur murder is quite unique.
I would have given her a medal. Excellent work on her part.
…rga%m?
I would’ve given that woman a standing O.
It is likely that there are additional important facts about the story (for one, I don’t understand how an able bodied man accepts being doused with fuel in sufficient quantity to die from his injuries)…However,
… based on the simple description of the facts as presented, I would surely convict the woman, albeit, on a more lenient sentence.
From the description seems like Mr. Soriano either had served, or somehow was going to eventually complete his 9 year jail sentence – which seems like an appropriate punishment. Death without trial hardly seems to be an appropriate punishment for the additional crime of one time verbal taunting towards a victim’s parent.
So I do not understand what is Mr. Mitchell’s question on this subject:
If Mr. Mitchell thinks that the 9 year sentence was too lenient, then he should first present his case against that. That seems like a reasonable debate. If he loses that debate and continues to feel deeply frustrated by the fact that society does not seem willing to adopt his presumably much harsher sentences, then we can change the debate. But in any case, immediately endorsing vigilante death penalty, as supplemental punishment for the original crime of rape plus the one time taunting of the victim’s parent, seems rather extreme and unusual punishment.
A more practical corollary seems to be: Don’t ever even speak to young women by the name of Mitchell, until you have met and evaluated the parent hazard…
Jamie, I would not include rape in that list under any circumstances. Women can accuse men in many cases without proof and get a conviction. Better a law that gives a equal sentence to a false rape accuser to cut back on those false accusations.
Even child molesting charges are suspect, particullarly in divorce cases. Also, some older children get wise to the system and falsely accuse their parents as well.
I guess any he said, she said crime is not a good candidate for that.
I Think that “No cruel and unusual punishment” is one of the wisest clauses of the American Constitution
What you say about Pakistan is simply horrifying. Those Asian countries have so many cruel people and so many cruel and unusual punishments; it is not surprising that dictators murdered hundreds millions in Asian countries through history
In the Caribbean / South American part of the world where I spend my life people are usually very compassionate and I think that is our best quality. Ecuador / Colombia have the worst sexual serial killer in history (if you count only serial killers that are not !@#$%^&* politicians; of course the worst sadistic mass murderers in human history -and by several orders of magnitude- were politicians ). That psychopath murdered about 300 little girls in Ecuador and Colombia (!!!) (simply horrifying !!) and he never suffered death penalty (probably because it never exists) We rarely have serial killers in these countries.
I would convict this woman if I was in a jury. In my country a similar thing happened -without the fire- and the murderer was sentenced to the lightest possible prison term. Burning someone is cruel and it seems that the woman’s intention was killing the man. But the “crime under passion” clause would lighten her sentence. In the USA sentences are too heavy; it is horrifying to see how a man in California was sentenced to life prison because he stole some steaks and it was his third offense. That is truly inhuman.
If I were to obtain my idea of a perfect world convicted rapists, child molesters and murderers would no longer be considered human. They broke a pact with their fellow humans by acting like animals and therefore should be treated as such: put down.
A horse breaks its leg, it gets put down. Why should we treat people who chose not be human any more (and believe me it’s a choice that these monsters make) any differently?
However, this would only happen if they were convicted on real evidence like DNA testing, etc, not political, racial or irrational reasons (the Robin Hood Hills Murder convictions are a good example of irrationality).
Now, in the real world this woman should be put in prison. We can’t allow for vigilante justice because that’s the path towards chaos.
I understand her situation, but we have a system of justice that has to be maintained. I know that it doesn’t always provide justice, but it’s better than having no justice system at all or the justice systems of countries like Pakistan where Mukhtaran Bibi was sentenced to be ganged raped by her neighbors because she offended her younger brother. She was then forced to walk naked through her village after the rape in the hopes that she would be so shamed she would kill herself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukhtaran_Bibi
Markets in Everything, including justice.
Woman is wronged; criminal gets off light; instead of relying on the authorities, she takes matters into her own hands PRECISELY BECAUSE the authorities are limited in their action.
The man’s taunt could be interpreted as a threat, so she pre-emptively stopped him from further action.
Brutal? Yes, but so was the perpetrator.
When individuals follow the law, those who do not will find easy victims. Sadly, it cost this man his life. Fortunately the threat to the woman’s daughter is now over. No easy answers; no soundbites; no happy ending.
Heard this one on Ace of Spades yesterday. She was let go.
There is very little true justice anymore, so vigilante justice is the way we must go. It’s just too bad the tax payers had to support him in jail for all that time first.